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Plaque for Paul Carr on Taipan

(removed)

19-Aug-2003
10:07:16 AM

I saw on the news this morning vision of former SOG chief Paul Carr's friends and family placing a plaque amongst the broken grey stuff at the top of Taipan. This was the guy who died (of a heart attack I believe) on Cho Oyu a few months ago while training for a fund-raising ascent of Everest.

Somewhat amusingly, they described the free abseil after the plaque ceremony down Serpentine as "a harrowing ordeal". It's all relative I guess.

I can think of at least 2 other memorial plaques at Arapiles. No opinions of my own (I don't know where I stand), but what do you all think of this practice ?

climbingjac

19-Aug-2003
10:30:03 AM

It was my understanding that a plaque was usually placed at the scene of an accident. In this case, the accident was not at Taipan. What's the protocol on this sort of thing? Kieran? What's the standard at Araps?


nmonteith

19-Aug-2003
10:33:36 AM

Wade Stevens wrote a really great article on the pros and cons of memorial plaques in the VCC Argus just before he himself was killed. It was actaully a spooky article as most read it after they had heard of his death.

What i don't like about the practice is that there will always be climbers being killed at crags so there will always be more plaques added. Eventually the entire crag will look like a graveyard. That is not a good look. Mind you - seeing these plaques when climbing makes me take a bit more care!


nmonteith

19-Aug-2003
10:39:39 AM

There is at least one plaque at Arapiles for a climber that was not killed there. Whats wrong with just throwing some ashes off the cliff? That is all i would want.


Alex

19-Aug-2003
11:29:21 AM

Theres a plaque next to Well's Cave in the Cathedral Range for a climber (from MUMC I _think_) who was lost on a NZ alpine peak.

Onsight

19-Aug-2003
11:38:21 AM

Sounds more like a staged media event than a memorial...

Plaque's are pretentious and don't really belong at places like Arapiles and the Grampians. You might find some support for it if the climber was actually killed at the cliff, but otherwise I can't see any justification at all. Geez, we all die sometime - but doesn't mean we have plaster plaques everywhere...


Donut King

19-Aug-2003
12:03:23 PM

kinda like an constant reminder of scene of death. a huge memorial

imagine if they did the same with hospital beds?

donuts


oweng

19-Aug-2003
12:25:17 PM

One would assume that they got permission from Parks Vic to put in the plaque (if it was a media event with a ceremony), so if Parks are ok with it, I guess it would have to stay. It would set an unfortunate precedent if Parks did give permission though. As he didnt die at the spot, there is no clear reason for installing a plaque, other than it is a spectacular location. How can Parks justify allowing his plaque, and not others who might want the same for their loved ones?

mikl law

19-Aug-2003
12:31:53 PM

If I die I'll leave a few bucks to rebolt a climb, with "RIP" on the head.

There used to be a big welded cross of 2" waterpipe as a belay / rap anchor somewhere on the Three sisters as a memorial to Big Willis, a scout instructor.


oweng

19-Aug-2003
12:44:19 PM

Ive just read an article in the Herald-Sun (page 9). Aarently the plaque is located at "possum's ledge" which is the point from which the Police Special Operations Group undertake their abseil training. Paul Carr was an instructor who handled the training, with "at least 100 Victoria police officers a year for 10 years" being trained at the spot, the majority apparently trained by Paul.


Richard

19-Aug-2003
1:10:53 PM

I thought a good solution to the plaques issue was to have an memorial area somewhere near the cliff, but not actually on it, were all plaques could be put, rather than having each one on the particualr climb. Hence, the relatives have a quite memorial spot, and climbers aren't forced to climb or play on someones grave if they want to do the climb. I think the idea of planting memorial trees is also good - we did this at Araps on the 2002 cup weekend, for a number of climbers who'd lost their life there over the years. Some of the relaitives / friends planted the trees, so they know where they are and who they are for - a private special spot.

Actually, did Wade mention this idea in his article? I read it somewhere.


nmonteith

19-Aug-2003
2:13:20 PM

I just read the article is the 'shun'. It certainlly looks like a media stunt - i am not quite sure why though. An almost full page article with pictures. I thought memorials went out of fashion 100 years ago...


Phil Box

19-Aug-2003
2:32:03 PM

So lemme get this straight here. Yer allowed to bolt plaques to cliffs but you aren`t allowed to place bolts in cliffs. Hmmm, I think I have an idea for any new sport route I put up, I`ll just place a plaque with four bolts in it at every location I need to place a bolt, yeah that`ll work and if a ranger happens along I can justify my actions by announcing to him that I`m merely placing plaques to a dearly departed climber friend.

Disclaimer, this post is not intended to offend any who may have been involved with placing memorial plaques.


Rupert

19-Aug-2003
4:03:08 PM

There are several plaques at Araps and I personally don't like the idea - I believe something away from the cliff would be more appropriate. However how different people cope with their grief varies a great deal. It just seems a shame that in aiming to 'remember' these people in the environment they obviously cared for - the rock suffers too.


nmonteith

19-Aug-2003
4:10:56 PM

I wonder if there would be as much media hype if Paul Carr had died on a smaller peak? - or in a car crash?


IdratherbeclimbingM9

19-Aug-2003
5:39:28 PM

On 19/08/2003 mikl law wrote:

>There used to be a big welded cross of 2" waterpipe as a belay / rap anchor
>somewhere on the Three sisters as a memorial to Big Willis, a scout instructor.

Its on the back side of the 1st sister (ie the one closest to the lookout).

And in the vein of what Richard said,"climbers aren't forced to climb or play on someones grave if they want to do the climb".

I found it a spooky experience when I used it the 1st time, for exactly that reason.
It caused me to think though, so I did some homework later. Apparently he died after taking a fall when the rope held (initially), but cut through when he pendulumed across the face. Freaky stuff, ... Imagine that for a moment. Fancy thinking beaut I am held after falling!, only to go the whole way moments later...

My thoughts on new plaques is that trees planted and accessable to the relatives is a better option. Having said that I acknowledge history, and can understand the memory plaque to Alan Gledhill below Wilkinson Lookout (Lord Gumtree/Ozy Direct) at Mt Buffalo.
I don't know where the line should be drawn though, because this plaque is on a climb that the deceased contributed to, rather than teaching technique to others (abseiling) on ...

19-Aug-2003
7:14:10 PM

On 19/08/2003 Richard wrote:
>I thought a good solution to the plaques issue was to have an memorial
>area somewhere near the cliff, but not actually on it, were all plaques
>could be put, rather than having each one on the particualr climb. Hence,
>the relatives have a quite memorial spot, and climbers aren't forced to
>climb or play on someones grave if they want to do the climb.

Or perhaps a "grove of honour" where each tree has a plaque (hopefully not the Pines at Arapiles!!).

I think climbers' memorials are a good idea -- a place for quiet refelction for those who want it, but not "in your face" where everyone who goes there has to see it.
A good one I've been to is the cemetary on the trail that leads to the Hooker Vallkey out of Mt Cook. Certainly makes you think carefully about what you're about to do before you go up the Hooker (or even what you've just done, if you're on the way out!). The other one I've been to is the cemetary near Puente del Inca below Aconcagua. Two guys were just concreting over a fresh grave when I visited. I later found out they were the brothers of a young guy who took a slide down the steep, 1000m ice slope of the Polish Glacier (one of a group of four novices). Sobering.

kieranl

20-Aug-2003
10:11:14 PM

First, my personal opinion, these memorials should not be placed in State and National Parks.
Secondly, I believe that there has been a decision at Arapiles to not allow memorial plaques and some have been removed. Unfortunately I have just accessed this post at 2200 hours and it is not polite to ring the people who can verify this.
The policy that I believe is in force at Arapiles may not apply to the Grampians.
Paul Carr sounds like a great person but why does he get a memorial plaque above Taipan when Nick Reeves (first ascent of Seventh Banana) and Mark Moorhead (first asent of Seventh Pillar variant start) don't have them?
I am not aware that Paul Carr had any conection with Taipan Wall so I don't agree with a plaque to his memory being placed there.
Kieran

Peter

21-Aug-2003
12:32:46 AM

No offence to those departed, but when I die Im going to have a plaque placed in the centre square of the MCG, played there as a kid a couple of time, Sir Edmond will have his on Everest, and Mark Richards is planning a floating bouy at Bells. The guys who passed away in the Westgate accident can have little plaques along the white lines, and Bert Newton can have one at Ashley and Martin.

Silly isnt it, I am of the understanding that cairns are erected for lost souls due to climbing accident as there bodies are not normally recovered on the big mountains, any stunt like this cheapens the respect that is shown to these people. I think the climbing community should have this practice outlawed, maybe a perminant cairn in the carpark for those that lost thier lives on the face, but die elsewhere, put your memorial there.

As climbers, I cant see how Pauls teamates can allow such bullshit.


The Elk

21-Aug-2003
11:58:23 AM

I wouldn't want plaques littered all over the place...
I would've thought those that die climbing would want to leave the place unchanged, respect for the rock and all that....
hmmm....
Personally I want my ashes made into some form of climbing chalk, an extra ingredient or something, that way my friends can keep climbing with me, and I'll be left on the rock.

em

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