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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 29
Author
New Grampians bans announced: Taipan, Bundaleer

gordoste
19-Aug-2020
1:56:29 PM
Scenario 2 is great! We can prove to traditional owners that PV's behaviour is the problem, not ours. So far, we do not have proof that PV has actually fabricated evidence. Their sin has been to simply accept anything they get told. Someone tells them that climbers put a bolt there - they don't ask for proof. It's just laziness and I'm hoping the embarrassment from these episodes has made them less lazy.

If they fake up a photo as you suggest, then we can wipe the floor with them. So, don't climb there and let them shoot themselves in the foot.

There is obviously a 3rd scenario that you're missing though.

ajfclark
19-Aug-2020
3:08:06 PM
> So far, we do not have proof that PV has actually fabricated evidence.

Other than when they took photos of bolts installed yb PV and said it was climbers?
Olbert
19-Aug-2020
7:27:53 PM
On 19-Aug-2020 ajfclark wrote:
>> So far, we do not have proof that PV has actually fabricated evidence.
>
>Other than when they took photos of bolts installed yb PV and said it
>was climbers?

Other than when they blamed climbers for chalking up the unclimbed half of the Sandanista Wall?
Olbert
19-Aug-2020
7:31:54 PM
On 19-Aug-2020 gordoste wrote:
>Scenario 2 is great! We can prove to traditional owners that PV's behaviour
>is the problem, not ours. So far, we do not have proof that PV has actually
>fabricated evidence. Their sin has been to simply accept anything they
>get told. Someone tells them that climbers put a bolt there - they don't
>ask for proof. It's just laziness and I'm hoping the embarrassment from
>these episodes has made them less lazy.
>
>If they fake up a photo as you suggest, then we can wipe the floor with
>them. So, don't climb there and let them shoot themselves in the foot.
>
>There is obviously a 3rd scenario that you're missing though.

I think I'm just in the 3rd stage of grieving - anger and bargaining. Serpentine is a dream of mine and I am just now getting good enough to give it a serious go. Before Victoria went into lockdown I was trying to put together a trip.

I have no plans to do a sneaky sneak on Taipan. As a public servant myself, I would like to think that Parks is filled with reasonable people and there will, in the medium term, be a fair outcome. Especially if climbers are reasonable and act like adults. It's just that thus far, Parks has shown no willingness to act reasonably themselves.

gordoste
20-Aug-2020
8:57:01 PM
On 19-Aug-2020 Olbert wrote:
>On 19-Aug-2020 ajfclark wrote:
>>> So far, we do not have proof that PV has actually fabricated evidence.
>>
>>Other than when they took photos of bolts installed yb PV and said it
>>was climbers?

I was careful with my words. Fabrication of evidence would mean PV knew that what they were saying was wrong before they said it. You are implying this without proof.

>Other than when they blamed climbers for chalking up the unclimbed half
>of the Sandanista Wall?

Fortunately this was not in the public forum unlike the bolt one.

I share your view Olbert. The rank and file are mostly great people, however management seem to have decided that locking people out of parks unnecessarily is a good way to get attention, so that somebody will fix the regulatory system (which is a legitimate problem). I cannot disagree more with this strategy.
Olbert
21-Aug-2020
6:57:30 AM
On 20-Aug-2020 gordoste wrote:
>On 19-Aug-2020 Olbert wrote:
>>On 19-Aug-2020 ajfclark wrote:
>>>> So far, we do not have proof that PV has actually fabricated evidence.
>>>
>>>Other than when they took photos of bolts installed yb PV and said it
>>>was climbers?
>
>I was careful with my words. Fabrication of evidence would mean PV knew
>that what they were saying was wrong before they said it. You are implying
>this without proof.
>

Gordoste you totally miss the point - lets not bring facts to this!

>>Other than when they blamed climbers for chalking up the unclimbed half
>>of the Sandanista Wall?
>
>Fortunately this was not in the public forum unlike the bolt one.
>
>I share your view Olbert. The rank and file are mostly great people, however
>management seem to have decided that locking people out of parks unnecessarily
>is a good way to get attention, so that somebody will fix the regulatory
>system (which is a legitimate problem). I cannot disagree more with this
>strategy.

Realistically, legislation might be forcing their hand. If they don't do "something" then they risk getting significant fines and reputation damage. Their legal advice, which we don't have access to, might be driving them towards the bans and not a more nuanced approach. The whole Grampians trail is essentially a red-herring - it doesn't look good - but legally, they have jumped through the correct hoops.

That said, it doesn't explain the campaign of misinformation from the top. Admittedly, this campaign has been toned down if not completely paused.

gordoste
21-Aug-2020
2:35:41 PM
On 21-Aug-2020 Olbert wrote:
>On 20-Aug-2020 gordoste wrote:
>>On 19-Aug-2020 Olbert wrote:
>>>On 19-Aug-2020 ajfclark wrote:
>>>>> So far, we do not have proof that PV has actually fabricated evidence.
>>>>
>>>>Other than when they took photos of bolts installed yb PV and said
>it
>>>>was climbers?
>>
>>I was careful with my words. Fabrication of evidence would mean PV knew
>>that what they were saying was wrong before they said it. You are implying
>>this without proof.
>>
>
>Gordoste you totally miss the point - lets not bring facts to this!
>
>>>Other than when they blamed climbers for chalking up the unclimbed half
>>>of the Sandanista Wall?
>>
>>Fortunately this was not in the public forum unlike the bolt one.
>>
>>I share your view Olbert. The rank and file are mostly great people,
>however
>>management seem to have decided that locking people out of parks unnecessarily
>>is a good way to get attention, so that somebody will fix the regulatory
>>system (which is a legitimate problem). I cannot disagree more with this
>>strategy.
>
>Realistically, legislation might be forcing their hand. If they don't
>do "something" then they risk getting significant fines and reputation
>damage. Their legal advice, which we don't have access to, might be driving
>them towards the bans and not a more nuanced approach. The whole Grampians
>trail is essentially a red-herring - it doesn't look good - but legally,
>they have jumped through the correct hoops.
>
>That said, it doesn't explain the campaign of misinformation from the
>top. Admittedly, this campaign has been toned down if not completely paused.

It's well documented that many cultural artifacts are being put at risk of damage by walkers. Banning one user group doesn't exempt you from legal liability for damage by others. So I don't think this makes sense.

You are spot on about the trail, that has been done 100% by the book.

Climbers are only going to solve this by challenging the legality of bans that are far more extensive than necessary, and by partnering with TOs to balance access with cultural protection. The days of wandering up to a cliff with your drill are gone.


ajfclark
22-Aug-2020
8:40:01 AM
On 20-Aug-2020 gordoste wrote:
>I was careful with my words. Fabrication of evidence would mean PV knew that what they were saying was wrong before they said it. You are implying this without proof.

It seems wildly unlikely to me that anyone could see the bolts in the shelter at Buandik and not realise they were part of an old, now removed, fence, but yes, I should not attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence.

gordoste
24-Aug-2020
2:10:21 PM
On 22-Aug-2020 ajfclark wrote:
>On 20-Aug-2020 gordoste wrote:
>>I was careful with my words. Fabrication of evidence would mean PV knew
>that what they were saying was wrong before they said it. You are implying
>this without proof.
>
>It seems wildly unlikely to me that anyone could see the bolts in the
>shelter at Buandik and not realise they were part of an old, now removed,
>fence, but yes, I should not attribute to malice what can be adequately
>explained by incompetence.

My guess is that there was malice involved from a third party and PV were just easily led.

 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 29
There are 29 messages in this topic.

 

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