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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 29
Author
New Grampians bans announced: Taipan, Bundaleer
gfdonc
14-Aug-2020
12:37:54 PM
I wish I were joking ..

https://www.parks.vic.gov.au/news/2020/08/14/03/38/remarkable-cultural-landscape-further-revealed-at-grampians

With the popular rock-climbing areas Taipan Wall/Spurt Wall and Bundaleer located within these Aboriginal cultural places, Parks Victoria has hosted a meeting with rock climbing representatives to discuss the need for immediate protections. These include protection zones and signage so that people donít inadvertently enter the areas and cause harm.
The protection zones cover areas used for bushwalking and rock climbing, while other sections currently remain open to the public. A long-term approach to protecting these places will be determined by a new management plan, a draft of which is expected to be released for further public consultation later this year.
dan_b
14-Aug-2020
2:01:27 PM
Oh for f*** sake.

Hopefully now that the bush walkersí access also appear threatened another user group might start paying attention to this issue.

The full text on Parks website at least acknowledges the importance of these cliffs to climbers, but I donít hold my breath for a rapid resolution.

MisterGribble
14-Aug-2020
4:11:40 PM
And also in the Age
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/ancient-cultural-discoveries-spark-more-grampians-rock-climbing-bans-20200814-p55lqd.html

And look at the inappropriate route names these climbers have, they shouldn't be allowed out, stage 4 for the lot of 'em !!

MisterGribble
15-Aug-2020
12:18:06 PM
And a bit more detail

https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2020/08/climbing_banned_on_australias_taipan_wall-72443
Martym
16-Aug-2020
9:21:00 PM
On 14-Aug-2020 dan_b wrote:
>Oh for f*** sake.
>
>Hopefully now that the bush walkersí access also appear threatened another
>user group might start paying attention to this issue.
>
>The full text on Parks website at least acknowledges the importance of
>these cliffs to climbers, but I donít hold my breath for a rapid resolution.

If you were going to pick a time to temporarily close a world renowned tourist destination to evaluate cultural and archaeological issues; surely during a global travel ban while the entire state is in lockdown would cause the least disruption to user groups?
I have no idea what the facts are but I imagine they've seized the opportunity to fast track some of this stuff.

On 15-Aug-2020 MisterGribble wrote:
>And a bit more detail
>https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2020/08/climbing_banned_on_australias_taipan_wall-72443
I've been following the Onsight blog and the SaveTheGrampians blog; and have to say - the UK Climbing article above has provided more information on indigenous perspective in a short few paragraphs than in the dozens of articles on those other sites.
maxdacat
17-Aug-2020
6:13:16 AM
This was in the email I got from Parks Vic:

"For climbers, access to Taipan Wall and Spurt Wall is currently restricted by the protection zone"

It doesn't explicitly say climbing is banned at Taipan but that access is restricted by the protection zone. Guess you could still rap in?

E. Wells
17-Aug-2020
6:20:52 AM
Rapping into Serpentine belay is fine as per protection zone restriction. Just wear an orange jumpsuit so the one percenters on their guided glamp tramp (post reset) dont have their view ruined by peasants with a penchant for challenge and adversity.
Olbert
17-Aug-2020
6:52:05 AM
On 17-Aug-2020 E. Wells wrote:
>Rapping into Serpentine belay is fine as per protection zone restriction.
> Just wear an orange jumpsuit so the one percenters on their guided glamp
>tramp (post reset) dont have their view ruined by peasants with a penchant
>for challenge and adversity.

Having read the Parks' document, it seems like E. Wells is correct...but climbing on Taipan with abseil access seems to be against the intent to the ban. What are people's perspective on abseil access to Taipan?

I can't imagine that there is much Indigenous heritage on the top half of Taipan wall...

I both don't want to be a dick but I also really really want to climb (or at least have a go at) Serpentine.

dan_b
17-Aug-2020
9:01:36 AM
On 16-Aug-2020 Martym wrote:
>On 14-Aug-2020 dan_b wrote:
>>Oh for f*** sake.

>If you were going to pick a time to temporarily close a world renowned
>tourist destination to evaluate cultural and archaeological issues; surely
>during a global travel ban while the entire state is in lockdown would
>cause the least disruption to user groups?
>I have no idea what the facts are but I imagine they've seized the opportunity
>to fast track some of this stuff.

Itís a valid point, but local travel restrictions will be over soon (and this makes up the majority of climbers in the Grampians anyway). I donít think that this will be fast-tracked in anyway, and that these bans are likely to persist long after life starts returning to normal.

>I've been following the Onsight blog and the SaveTheGrampians blog; and>have to say - the UK Climbing article above has provided more information
>on indigenous perspective in a short few paragraphs than in the dozens
>of articles on those other sites.

Iíve not read the article, but I totally understand that when there is such limited tangible historical evidence, protecting as much is possible is a worthwhile exercise.

I donít think that SaveTheGrampians or Simon Carter are obliged to argue for anything other than the climbers perspective, and defend the allegations that we have been bolting art, and willingly vandalising significant sites. Climbers were accused of highly inappropriate if not illegal activities. Why would they argue in favour of their accusers position? I am aware of this broad use of language and donít mean to imply that all or indeed any Aboriginal groups are making this accusation, itís been Parks really, and I accept that middle ground has to be found between all users with protection of cultural heritage is paramount. I am however grateful for those who are taking up the cause on MY behalf.
maxdacat
17-Aug-2020
9:31:59 AM
On 17-Aug-2020 E. Wells wrote:
>Rapping into Serpentine belay is fine as per protection zone restriction.
> Just wear an orange jumpsuit so the one percenters on their guided glamp
>tramp (post reset) dont have their view ruined by peasants with a penchant
>for challenge and adversity.

Always entertaining Evan :) An orange jumpsuit would also be appropriate if you get shipped off to the Parks Vic version of Guantanamo Bay.

gordoste
17-Aug-2020
9:55:08 AM
On 17-Aug-2020 Olbert wrote:
>On 17-Aug-2020 E. Wells wrote:
>>Rapping into Serpentine belay is fine as per protection zone restriction.
>> Just wear an orange jumpsuit so the one percenters on their guided glamp
>>tramp (post reset) dont have their view ruined by peasants with a penchant
>>for challenge and adversity.
>
>Having read the Parks' document, it seems like E. Wells is correct...but
>climbing on Taipan with abseil access seems to be against the intent to
>the ban. What are people's perspective on abseil access to Taipan?
>
>I can't imagine that there is much Indigenous heritage on the top half
>of Taipan wall...
>
>I both don't want to be a dick but I also really really want to climb
>(or at least have a go at) Serpentine.
>
>

I hope the relevant climbing groups make it clear that our quarrel is not with traditional owners, but with PV. We recognise the need for a balanced approach that protects the remaining cultural heritage whilst (where possible) allowing responsible recreational access. From what I have seen, the traditional owner groups want this too. However, we really need to be clear that PV's behaviour is sabotaging this shared goal, through:

  • Repeated smearing of climbers in the media through misinformation

  • Statements that climbers will be consulted, followed by unilateral communication of bans. If we aren't going to be consulted in the short term while assessments occur, then just be honest about that.

  • Allowing cultural heritage consultants to comment on areas outside their domain of expertise. An Aboriginal art expert does not know what chalk looks like, nor do they have the ability to figure out who placed a particular bolt. In fact, comments they make on topics other than Aboriginal artwork should be removed from their reports.

  • Refusing to acknowledge that climbers are a valid park user. All that would be needed is to invite VCC & ACAV leadership into the room, explain why this is necessary, and ask for the climbing community's support and patience. The lack of engagement makes climbers feel that we are perceived as a nuisance, to be swatted away so that PV can get back to their strategy of attracting lucrative walkers and glampers.



Traditional owners and climbers share common values - forming a connection with the land through being in it. We cannot let PV's behaviour create conflict between us.

PV management are simply doing the job they've been given - figuring out how to save the taxpayer money whilst meeting their legislated requirement to protect cultural heritage. They do not care about climbers' hurt feelings, since we don't help them do that job. It's not personal - it's just business.

I just hope nobody does anything stupid that affects climbers' public image. That would be a total victory for PV - we will lose all credibility and they will be able to dictate to us exactly when and how things will be re-opened.
Olbert
17-Aug-2020
10:27:32 AM
On 17-Aug-2020 gordoste wrote:

>I just hope nobody does anything stupid that affects climbers' public
>image. That would be a total victory for PV - we will lose all credibility
>and they will be able to dictate to us exactly when and how things will
>be re-opened.

Are you referring to top down access of Taipan? Maybe I'm looking at it with desperation but I'm genuinely not sure if abseiling in and climbing on Taipan with the current access ban is a dick move or not. If the intent is to protect cultural heritage, then there seems to be no practical difference between walking to the edge of Taipan and abseiling over the top. The risk of damage to any cultural heritage would be nil if I don't touch the ground.

If they intended to indeed ban climbing on Taipan, regardless of the access, then surely they would have said that?

Chloe
17-Aug-2020
3:36:04 PM
On 17-Aug-2020 Olbert wrote:
>If they intended to indeed ban climbing on Taipan, regardless of the access,
>then surely they would have said that?

What?
Why would they risk an international public backlash?
Much easier to achieve their political end by stealth with dividing and conquering.

Duang Daunk
17-Aug-2020
3:43:57 PM
Bro Olly. I overheard someone saying that youíre too late on both counts.

Where is bro ODH to add a common sense perspective to this debacle erroneously masquerading as a consultation as if it is debatable?



Groveller
18-Aug-2020
6:34:18 AM
Are Grey and Green walls closed,? I was very keen to do Threadneedle at some stage. These walls have been mentioned on the restriction Zone maps.
gfdonc
18-Aug-2020
7:17:07 AM
No I'm not aware of closures affecting Grey & Green Walls.
gfdonc
18-Aug-2020
4:17:22 PM
I'm stunned to learn I was wrong - the area around Simpleton is part of an SPA. News to me, and more disturbing given Parks and the VCC collaborated not so long ago to fix up the access track.
However, I'm also told Threadneedle is outside this designated area so is still OK.

Groveller
19-Aug-2020
6:44:20 AM
Now just have to wait for Dan to let us go out of town.

gordoste
19-Aug-2020
11:09:32 AM
On 17-Aug-2020 Olbert wrote:
>On 17-Aug-2020 gordoste wrote:
>
>>I just hope nobody does anything stupid that affects climbers' public
>>image. That would be a total victory for PV - we will lose all credibility
>>and they will be able to dictate to us exactly when and how things will
>>be re-opened.
>
>Are you referring to top down access of Taipan? Maybe I'm looking at it
>with desperation but I'm genuinely not sure if abseiling in and climbing
>on Taipan with the current access ban is a dick move or not. If the intent
>is to protect cultural heritage, then there seems to be no practical difference
>between walking to the edge of Taipan and abseiling over the top. The risk
>of damage to any cultural heritage would be nil if I don't touch the ground.
>
>If they intended to indeed ban climbing on Taipan, regardless of the access,
>then surely they would have said that?

You're talking about PV here. All it takes is a ranger who wants a pat on the head from PV bigwigs, and there will be photos plastered everywhere of people climbing on Taipan with the headline "Climbers reject cultural heritage protection regime". The fact that paragraph 3 clause 2 subpoint iii technically allows you to access Taipan from the top means you can't be personally punished, but you would definitely be receiving a thankyou note from PV for making their life a lot easier.
Olbert
19-Aug-2020
1:22:13 PM
On 19-Aug-2020 gordoste wrote:
>On 17-Aug-2020 Olbert wrote:
>>On 17-Aug-2020 gordoste wrote:
>>
>>>I just hope nobody does anything stupid that affects climbers' public
>>>image. That would be a total victory for PV - we will lose all credibility
>>>and they will be able to dictate to us exactly when and how things will
>>>be re-opened.
>>
>>Are you referring to top down access of Taipan? Maybe I'm looking at
>it
>>with desperation but I'm genuinely not sure if abseiling in and climbing
>>on Taipan with the current access ban is a dick move or not. If the intent
>>is to protect cultural heritage, then there seems to be no practical
>difference
>>between walking to the edge of Taipan and abseiling over the top. The
>risk
>>of damage to any cultural heritage would be nil if I don't touch the
>ground.
>>
>>If they intended to indeed ban climbing on Taipan, regardless of the
>access,
>>then surely they would have said that?
>
>You're talking about PV here. All it takes is a ranger who wants a pat
>on the head from PV bigwigs, and there will be photos plastered everywhere
>of people climbing on Taipan with the headline "Climbers reject cultural
>heritage protection regime". The fact that paragraph 3 clause 2 subpoint
>iii technically allows you to access Taipan from the top means you can't
>be personally punished, but you would definitely be receiving a thankyou
>note from PV for making their life a lot easier.

When have facts ever mattered to PV?

Scenario 1:

Climber climbs on Taipan, gets caught, Parks claim that climbers are ignoring the ban using photographic evidence. Non-climbing media pick it up and think "pesky climbers".

Scenario 2:

No climber climbs on Taipan, no evidence of climbers, Parks claim that climbers are ignoring the ban using photographic "evidence". Non-climbing media pick it up and think "pesky climbers".

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 29
There are 29 messages in this topic.

 

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