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Climbing banned at Dec Crag

One Day Hero

8-Dec-2019
4:35:47 PM

I was commenting only on Evans bold internet spray about how he would protest climb down there (it's one step more pathetic than an actual protest climb).

Widespread bans wouldn't be all bad, might be able to pick up a nice house in Nati for fifty bucks and sit on it in the hope that climbing will be allowed again some day :)


E. Wells

8-Dec-2019
4:41:44 PM

Ive only ever sat on Dec crag to watch the sun rise , and Im not especially aetheist , I think it is very interesting that Christianity lasted one century before Constantine and Justin allowed the syncretic rituals of Isis and Mithra to completely re-assume their place and dictate the narrative for everything we assume to be Christian , I.e Heaven , Ressurection , Imortality of the Soul , December the 26th , literally everything , and gosh, that happened in the space of a few millenia. Chicken Feed in timescale really. Of course I wasnt talking about climbing at Dec specifically but just climbing.

dalai

8-Dec-2019
4:42:42 PM

Was an odd post earlier by Evan. There would be absolutely nothing positive to result from such action!

dalai

8-Dec-2019
4:49:35 PM

Why the talk of religion? It's about protecting the TO's connection to the land they have enjoyed the last 40,000 odd years.


E. Wells

8-Dec-2019
5:20:20 PM

Because its one and the same to me. You tell me that a mass of hard sediment (or a book) has some sacred spiritual value and should be experienced only in this way , thats your opinion , which is fine. Until you say oh , and what ever value or experience you want to have is invalid , nay , illegal , because uhhhhhh....... because of the dead?....yep....be scared of the dead. That is why I bring up religion , because in both instances a crock of shit is used to control people through fear.


E. Wells

8-Dec-2019
5:45:18 PM

Whether Im working out of Mullewa , Ceduna , Brewarrina , I have no idea what T.O is because I spend most of my time walking in the outback but I know that EVERY single natural feature has been sacred to humans and every meter trodden before me , and in that 40+ thousand years beleif systems and stories have turned themselves over many times , none the less , I am a climber. I like to climb on rock. If that offends a uniformed government agent with criminal powers to rob me monetarily then im not going to stop climbing , I will just do my best to avoid the coming fascism. If you are not a climber thats ok.

kieranl

9-Dec-2019
6:30:17 AM

On 8-Dec-2019 E. Wells wrote:
>Until someone can explain why climbing there is an issue , in logic , not
>animistic occult claptrap (I dont subscribe to Mithraic sun cult fairytales
>imposed on me in my own family and society so why accept anyone elses?)
>I will climb there anytime I like. I never climbed Uluru for a very good
>reason , that is , the LOCAL people would be hurt and offended because
>of the signicance to THEM. Locals at Dec crag or the Gramps for that matter
>have not expressed this to the public with any effect. I call Bullsh#t.

To clarify, at present it is asked that there be no public access to Dec Crag; not just no climbing access.

As to what the LOCAL Traditional Owners want, I can't speak for them. Evan might want to listen to Stuart Harradine, Manager On Country Operations from Barengi Gadjin Land Council and also a Traditional Owner speaking on ABC Radio:

https://www.abc.net.au/radio/wimmera/programs/breakfast/breakfast/11744254

Stuart is at 2:13:40 - 2:21:42


gordoste

9-Dec-2019
8:36:44 AM

On 8-Dec-2019 E. Wells wrote:
>Whether Im working out of Mullewa , Ceduna , Brewarrina , I have no idea
>what T.O is because I spend most of my time walking in the outback but
>I know that EVERY single natural feature has been sacred to humans and
>every meter trodden before me , and in that 40+ thousand years beleif systems
>and stories have turned themselves over many times , none the less , I
>am a climber. I like to climb on rock. If that offends a uniformed government
>agent with criminal powers to rob me monetarily then im not going to stop
>climbing , I will just do my best to avoid the coming fascism. If you are
>not a climber thats ok.

So basically, you only support other people's rights if they don't interfere with yours (which means you don't support them at all). You don't care about the consequences of your actions on others, even if they are fellow climbers. And you describe all authority figures, even if democratically instituted, as "fascism".

Some might say that you, sir, are a nitwit.


gordoste

9-Dec-2019
8:56:27 AM

> Until someone can explain why climbing there is an issue , in logic

Because we're trying to demonstrate that climbers would support a solution that entails restrictions on climbing WHERE APPROPRIATELY JUSTIFIED (that last bit is the piece that is totally absent from the Grampians situation).
We need to show that we are responsible, mature citizens and will help protect what's left of the culture that has been destroyed by colonialism and negligent management by land managers.

Of course this kind of reason won't satisfy a 4-year-old who has had their toys taken away.


E. Wells

9-Dec-2019
9:09:35 AM

So if appropriate justification is not present in the Grampians situation what makes you think its gonna happen in Arapiles? And how has the climbing that has occurred on Dec crag threatened the living locals culture? (Not bureaucrats , residents)


Duang Daunk

9-Dec-2019
9:22:15 AM

On 8-Dec-2019 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 8-Dec-2019 dalai wrote:
>>There are some good lines. Hit the Deck is a good 6, Look Sharp a fun
>>4 amongst the other routes.
>>
>They're not that good. Easily 20 routes of each grade better than those
>at the Mount.
>
>>You may consider Dec crag an easy give away, but reality there will be
>>TO history throughout the whole park.
>
>I'm not saying give it away, I'm saying that Evan driving down from the
>Blueys to engage in a protest climb at Dec Crag will not help anything,
>and only an idiot would drive all the way from the Blueys to Araps to climb
>those particular routes.
>
>You know the goobers who drive interstate to proj Ergonomics just because
>it's a soft touch almost sport route and they don't have the fortitude
>to get on Procul or Yesterday or one of the good routes? This is the same
>as that, but with added dickishness.

We need an arbiter, so time out bro's.
I propose bro simey, 'cos no doubt you agree that simey wrote the book? ... And he makes Dec Crag the first thing in it!
(He also gives Look Sharp G24, not 4)!

The Book says; It's got six easy climbs (2 with single stars), three moderate climbs (1 a single star and another a double star), and ten hard climbs (2 with single stars and 2 with double stars).
... And we all know that he is not liberal with his star allocations being a star that has conkad kerchoo amongst many mighty routes himself!

ODH bro, I fear bro E Wells might get the trolling award off you this year...

E Wells bro, you do believe in the book don't you? Is that logic enough for you?


gordoste

9-Dec-2019
1:31:59 PM

On 9-Dec-2019 E. Wells wrote:
>So if appropriate justification is not present in the Grampians situation
>what makes you think its gonna happen in Arapiles? And how has the climbing
>that has occurred on Dec crag threatened the living locals culture? (Not
>bureaucrats , residents)

For the first question - quote from PV CEO from the PV announcement:

“We appreciate that Taylors Rock has previously been a popular spot for rock climbers and tour operators. It’s our hope that the rock-climbing community, Traditional Owners and land managers can all work together to protect, celebrate and communicate this rich Aboriginal history.”

Clearly this is a different approach than in the Grampians where massive areas are restricted with absolutely no justification, sites vulnerable to damage from hikers are not being protected at all, and recreational activities that generate income for PV are being allowed to damage the environmental values of the park.

Regarding the second question, these may be preventative measures rather than a reaction to damage that has already been done.

Society-at-large has decided to place power in the hands of TOs (rightly IMHO), and our presence will not be tolerated if we demonstrate that we cannot be trusted.

One Day Hero

9-Dec-2019
4:49:22 PM

On 9-Dec-2019 Duang Daunk wrote:
>ODH bro, I fear bro E Wells might get the trolling award off you this
>year...

Nuh, I reckon this is his legit atheist/libertarian/geologist point of view. I get it, if you spend your working life looking at open cut pits, then the 9cc of rock displaced for a bolt or a bit of chalk on the rock will start to look completely irrelevant. Hell, geologists walk around with a hammer to look inside every rock they come across......but, you know, insert that Joker "we live in a society" meme here.

Anyway, there are a few different access strategies which I see as valid and consistent, even if I disagree with them. Spraying on the internet about how you're gonna climb at closed crags "and there's nuffin nobody can do to stop me, eh?" achieves fuching zero except pissing off the people who it might be better not to piss off.

dalai

9-Dec-2019
5:03:18 PM

And if Evan is trolling for a chuckle, reality TO's and other interested parties won't know this and take his comments at face value. Further risking access because climbers can't be trusted!


E. Wells

9-Dec-2019
5:28:47 PM

Why do you keep calling black fellas T.O's ? Its creepy.


ajfclark

10-Dec-2019
6:50:45 AM

Mods, can we time out the racist for a bit?

ithomas

10-Dec-2019
7:30:31 AM

On 10-Dec-2019 ajfclark wrote:
>Mods, can we time out the racist for a bit?

Totally agree ajfclark. This Evan creep should be retired and ignored like a rusted old Stubai piton. Talk about making a delicate situation worse!


gordoste

10-Dec-2019
8:26:05 AM

On 10-Dec-2019 ithomas wrote:
>Totally agree ajfclark. This Evan creep should be retired and ignored like
>a rusted old Stubai piton. Talk about making a delicate situation worse!

To pre-empt the inevitable whinging, freedom of speech doesn't mean Chockstone is obligated to publish your speech.

Stepping back a little, climbers have learnt a lot from the Grampians experience. The reaction to the proposal of a Dec Crag moratorium is much more positive than when a moratorium was proposed in the Grampians. I think PV should be congratulated on getting the tone right this time - we don't have rangers running around threatening people or false information being spread in the media. I sincerely hope this is the foundation for a different and better working relationship with TOs and PV.

Time and again it's been shown that the climbing community can self-police just as well as other user groups - let's just do it.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

10-Dec-2019
12:44:11 PM

On 9-Dec-2019 E. Wells wrote:
>Why do you keep calling black fellas T.O's ? Its creepy.

Hmm.

Thought for the day...

“Is it only a white mans dreaming? Is it only a white mans dreaming that you’re listening too? Oh is it only a white mans dreaming getting through to you?
... Because it’s a black dreaming; a black dreaming, that’s surrounding you!”
~ Arramaieda.


E. Wells

10-Dec-2019
2:22:57 PM

M9 I totally agree , come and hang out in Bourke with me this week , we can throw rocks at the water sk....oh wait....there is no river.....hmmm...well. Im stumped , there is nothing else to do here.

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