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General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 30
VCC/CliffCare Route Development Moratorium-GNP

2:24:08 AM
Agreed; would be good to overlay a map of the climbing areas with the park's map; but would take a bit of work. You can see another version on P79 (I think) of the Park's management plan linked above somewhere.
1:46:54 PM
1:44:40 PM
Good blog post, Wendy.

I still think that some sort of moratorium/pause/gesture from the climbing community would be a good thing. But I get your point that arguing over this is an unnecessary distraction. It's far too easy to turn inward and tear ourselves apart rather than address the big issue of access that confronts us.

A lot of us developers suffer from a form of cognitive dissonance where we support the cultural and natural values of Grampians/Gariwerd National Park and still develop new areas/clean/place bolts. Rather than reconcile the conflicts we generally ignore them, as they're contradictory.

4:06:31 PM
On 11-Nov-2018 kieranl wrote:
>A lot of us developers suffer from a form of cognitive dissonance where we support the cultural and natural values of Grampians/Gariwerd National Park and still develop new areas/clean/place bolts. Rather than reconcile the conflicts we generally ignore them, as they're contradictory.

The management plan is also contradictory. The table at the start say <1% of the park is SPZ. The figure in the appendix at the end is clearly far more than 1%.

The plan was reviewed by so many people in 98 and submissions made so I find it hard to believe no one noticed this at the time. Hence my question is "Has the map been updated?".
One Day Hero
5:52:58 PM
On 11-Nov-2018 kieranl wrote:
>A lot of us developers suffer from a form of cognitive dissonance where
>we support the cultural and natural values of Grampians/Gariwerd National
>Park and still develop new areas/clean/place bolts. Rather than reconcile
>the conflicts we generally ignore them, as they're contradictory.

I disagree with this view, but airing my views in public now will be counter productive.

8:24:36 PM
If climbers are chopping unapproved retrobolts, but not routes that have been put up in areas of cultural significance, does that mean we care more about climbing history over indigenous history? (Yes I know it isn't black and white - but I hope you get my point).
Someone from a perspective of environmental protection and cultural preservation who sees the bolts and has no awareness of trad climbing might easily think we are just a bunch of ego-driven bogans putting our mark on the rock... Not saying they're right - they just don't understand our world and the effort that is put in to minimise our impact.
This is why I think a moratorium on bolts might be a good idea - to allow time to build some trust, educate people and find solutions that everybody can live with. On the other hand, if there is no plan to convene stakeholders and work through the issues, then a moratorium is pretty pointless.
10:05:39 PM
See Dave Scarlett's comment on the Open Spaces post in regards to the Moratorium also applying to Trad.

"The wholesale stopping of new trad routes was especially baffling."

This statement displays a complete failure to understand the issues threatening climbing access in the Grampians. Trad climbing over the top of an indigenous rock art site, or an area home to endangered flora, or at any site where climbing is prohibited is just as bad as sport climbing over the same area. The only difference is that sport route developers tend to leave more evidence. The notion that excessive bolting is the only threat to access fails to appreciate that the people most offended by overbolting are trad climbers, not land stakeholders. Stakeholders don't care about climbing ethics, they care about climbers encroaching on sensitive or protected areas, and "but no one will know if I do a sneaky trad climb" isn't an acceptable excuse for that."

Forum won't let me link here, but it's a comment on the Open Spaces facebook post about the issue.

3:36:33 PM
On 11-Nov-2018 jacksonclimbs wrote:
>Forum won't let me link here, but it's a comment on the Open Spaces facebook post about the issue.

This is the first part:

This is the second:

Mobile users might struggle, but it should go directly there in a web browser.
Access T CliffCare
9:56:31 PM
Hi all,

Moderator - not sure if this should go here but didn't want to start another thread just in case. I tried to enter the text but it was doing the suspicious content message again so the link will have to do.


The link is here

[Moderator edit - text from link above is as follows.]

VCC/Cliffcare Statement: Potential Changes to Climbing Access in the Grampians
Posted on November 13, 2018

There were some unexpected events last weekend and the community understandably wants clarification and answers. Getting answers and information can take time, and while it can be frustrating, there’s a process we have to follow. We appreciate your patience and support.

We want the climbing community to be involved in any decisions about climbing in the Grampians and this has always been our intention.


Over the past 12 months, we’ve put out reports, shared ideas and suggestions for how to minimise impact. We’ve encouraged discussion about climbing practices and tried to make people aware of the connection to and importance of the area for Traditional Owners. We’ve also highlighted any incidents that resulted in negative impact to the park.

This was food for thought, and the hope was that it would get the community engaged and taking about how we use the park and how these issues might be better managed. We also hoped people would begin to think critically about the issues and to prepare for the road ahead.

Conservation and cultural heritage

There are many reasons behind the current scrutiny of access for climbers and other park users in the Grampians. These reasons include greater engagement from stakeholder groups such as land managers and Traditional Owners in recent years, and changes in community attitudes and government approaches to conservation.

Any decisions about how to manage access will consider the concerns of all interest groups in the cont_ext of new and existing legislation. Which is why it is so important to make sure climbers have a seat at the table and we are seen to be a respectful park user group.

This is not unique to the Grampians, and this information was provided to the community both publicly, and privately, where necessary.

Being proactive

The best way to make sure we get a good outcome for climbers is to engage with other stakeholders proactively and this requires the community to understand the issues we’re facing.

Being proactive means we can’t wait to have explicit instructions in writing before we start to monitor and minimise our impact. If we do, we are compromising our position when it comes time to put forward our concerns.

We’ve had a number of incidents that resulted in serious impact in the park due to climbing. This has informed and changed how we need to approach this and will continue to.

More people are climbing

So far, our involvement with land managers has been positive but this doesn’t mean the road ahead will be straightforward.

There are very real problems with how we use the park now that the number of people climbing is growing. There are very real impacts driving the possible ways to manage this.

For the most part, climbers have the best intentions at heart when it comes to climbing in this unique and beautiful place. But we can’t keep doing things the way we always have.

We also need to think about people who are new to climbing. Education will be the focus of much of what we do, and that goes both ways—helping climbers to understand, and helping other interest groups to understand the concerns of climbers.

CliffCare education campaigns

CliffCare is working on an education campaign with input from prominent and experienced local climbers and developers. We expect to be ready to launch this soon.

We’re also planning more education campaigns for the future because this will be an ongoing effort to make sure people have the information they need to minimise impact, and to climb safely and respectfully.

We will also release surveys and every campaign will be the result of input and suggestions from the climbing community.

Protecting climbers’ interests

We’re also working to put in place measures to make sure the climbing community has a seat at the table when it comes to deciding on the future of climbing in the park.

Respecting other stakeholders and working collaboratively with land managers is extremely important. We also want climbers to be respected and to have the processes in place that give the climbing community, as an important user in the park, a solid standing.

Getting on board

We appreciate your patience and understanding while we work to gather information that makes sense and gives you a clear idea of the road ahead.

We encourage you to get on board and to support a proactive approach, either through volunteer involvement, feedback or even by considering your actions and the actions of others more thoughtfully when you are in the park.

More information and feedback

Please take the time to read the reports on the CliffCare homepage, especially the reports dating back to start of 2017. Any feedback from the climbing community will be welcomed and appreciated.

Of special importance is:
the proposal for an Updated PV climbing code of conduct/policy
the proposal for a Climbing Management Plan for the Grampians.

These documents were submitted to Parks Victoria. A series of constructive engagements will take place with Parks Victoria post the caretaker period.

Thank you.

Access T CliffCare
10:16:05 AM
Hi All,

The latest Access report is up. This report contains the most up to date information on Grampians access. Thanks for your patience whilst we respected the process of receiving feedback.

There is also a FAQ page on the CliffCare website that provides a little more info and is an evolving page. FAQs

Most importantly there is a SURVEY, which we encourage you to take part in. This will help us establish a profile on Victorian climbing and climber's attitudes. Please take 10 minutes of your time and provide us with your thoughts. SURVEY

Many thanks to all who have been helping out. There are many jobs and I will have another post soon that highlights areas you may be able to help with.


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