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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 29
Author
VCC/CliffCare Route Development Moratorium-GNP
Access T CliffCare
31-Oct-2018
5:18:31 AM
Hi All,

UPDATE: Just to clarify - this voluntary moratorium was NOT initiated by Parks Victoria. It is a request from the VCC/CliffCare to temporarily refrain from establishing any new routes.
Many in the climbing community regularly ask how can they can help deal with access issues. This request is asking for your help. More information is coming soon.

The VCC and CliffCare are asking the climbing community to temporarily refrain from developing new climbs in the Grampians for the next year. This will give us time to discuss the best way forward with land managers, Traditional Owners and other stakeholders. The moratorium announcement document, contains all the important points to note. We will be developing a FAQ page so if you have any questions, please drop a line to cliffcare@vicclimb.org.au

https://cliffcare.org.au/2018/10/31/voluntary-climbing-route-development-moratorium-grampians-national-park/

Thanks,

Tracey Skinner
VCC Access & Environment Officer


goshen
31-Oct-2018
6:20:03 PM
I'm going to attempt a bit of an online rant; please be kind to me.

Very sad reading :-(

So... climbing in the 'Special Protection' areas has been banned for years... Just that it hasn't been enforced? The PDF press release title is about a moratorium on new routes... I'm not totally clear about the reference areas, [where it comes to climbing already established routes] ... is it currently a grey area, or does that mean whole of Muline, Clean Cut, Gallery? Red Rocks etc etc etc are completely banned?

I just find it sad that whole areas can be banned for a perceived conflict (as-in, we don't know exactly what cliffs are implicated)... just that there's a cave / overhang somewhere which is extremely important. It's unknown whether it's good to climb or not (it's probably not); just that every chuck of rock within 10km is now off limits...

The flip side though; there's areas of Central and NW Australia, where whole regions are off limits to climbing completely; and rightly so in most cases... Cultural values are much 'stronger' up there; perhaps that's the Elephant in the Room; we live here too; the Grampians are important to us too, and we think we can respectfully climb at more remote locations and leave minimal impact.

I'm by no means perfect; but I have made attempts in my climbing to be both respectful of culture and the environment, but it's hard to write something about cultural heritage and avoid coming across as a privileged and white. Not sure how I've done.

Goshen






Rupert
31-Oct-2018
7:18:21 PM
Hi all,

firstly thank you to Tracey and others who regularly go into bat for the climbing community. I appreciate the efforts being undertaken to secure continued access to climbing locations.

Reading between the lines on Cliffcare's website, it would appear as though there is some discussion happening at the moment that could negatively impact future access. I feel it is important that we continue to have positive participation in discussions with any other people or groups involved. I really hope climbers can follow what CliffCare have requested while this gets sorted out.

I'm sure Tracey will be able to keep us updated through the FAQ she referred to and perhaps answer a few of the inevitable questions. I know I have a few questions too.

Cheers,
Rupert
One Day Hero
31-Oct-2018
7:22:11 PM
That's not really much of a rant Goshen.....allow me.

I strongly believe in an approach to climbing exploration and development which will pass a "glance from a distance" check. Anyone who knows what they're looking for can walk into a climbing area and recognise that it's seeing use. However, it would be nice if random walkers, tourists, and land managers didn't have obvious development rubbed in their faces and could walk past at a reasonable distance without even noticing anything. This isn't being ashamed of climbing, it's common good manners. You don't litter in the street, you don't vandalise public art. Why do some climbing developers seem to go out of their way to leave in-your-face signs of their presence?

I'm so incredibly pissed off that this development ban in the whole Grampians seems to have been brought to a head by a bunch of no-star horrible little filler sport routes at Black Ian's f---ing Rocks! Are we likely to lose access to world class routes because some utter muppets grid bolted the garbage filler routes which had been left undone by 50 years of climbers at a minor little climbed-out crag? Fuch these people. Why are they allowed to continue climbing after they gambled all of our futures on some worthless ego-stroking junk. They should have stuff thrown at them every time they show up to a crag!

This is the same shit I rant on about with regard to Araps. There are a thousand great routes at Araps with barely any bolts, and the place is effectively climbed out. Sure, you can squeeze some stupid contrived sport routes in, but how many of the climbs which have gone up in the last decade are actually worth a star? If there was a 1% chance that the dumb bolted routes and retro anchors (which continue to go in unabated) would affect access to the whole crag, would it be worth the risk?

So much to lose so little to gain, and the outdated frontier ethic of "whoever finds a new line can develop it how they please" is allowing the morons with the lowest standards and weakest understanding of risk/reward to sit at the roulette wheel with everyones chips on the table.

Fuch!
marky
31-Oct-2018
7:49:50 PM
I do believe that what started all this was a spate of new routes put up in an area by new climbers to the scene who thought it was a good idea to squeeze lines of bolts between existing routes in this particular sensitive area. There were also more routes place in this particular area through a blank area/cave that had significant aboriginal importance and was a known “no bolting/climbing zone.
With the rapid increase of new climbers to the scene there seems to be negligence and arrogance when it comes to researching into where to bolt and developing as well as no go zones. A lot of newbies to the scene are “psyched” and want to put up their own new routes/claim to fame and feel they can do as they please, wherever they please.
I’d really hate to see all the work and relationships forged between climbers and Parks Victoria in regards to climbing and development in the Grampians and other areas put in jeopardy due to a small percentage of new climbers to the scene who seem to disregard any ethics and rules/guidelines when it comes to development.

marky
31-Oct-2018
7:55:07 PM
Well said ODH!!!!

I’d really like to know who the responsible individuals were that added these “ego brag” routes in Black Ian’s????

Anyone know???

Duang Daunk
31-Oct-2018
7:59:07 PM
On 31-Oct-2018 marky wrote:
>I do believe that what started all this was a spate of new routes put up
>in an area by new climbers to the scene who thought it was a good idea
>to squeeze lines of bolts between existing routes in this particular sensitive
>area. There were also more routes place in this particular area through
>a blank area/cave that had significant aboriginal importance and was a
>known “no bolting/climbing zone.
>With the rapid increase of new climbers to the scene there seems to be
>negligence and arrogance when it comes to researching into where to bolt
>and developing as well as no go zones. A lot of newbies to the scene are
>“psyched” and want to put up their own new routes/claim to fame and feel
>they can do as they please, wherever they please.
>I’d really hate to see all the work and relationships forged between climbers
>and Parks Victoria in regards to climbing and development in the Grampians
>and other areas put in jeopardy due to a small percentage of new climbers
>to the scene who seem to disregard any ethics and rules/guidelines when
>it comes to development.
>
The answer to at least partially restoring the faith with authorities is to do as we profess and self regulate, not only by a namby pamby moratorium, but also by positive actions.
In recent years it has worked at Kaputar, Ben Lomond, Dargans Arch, Narrowneck, Mt Buffalo, Warrumbungles, and Mt Kiera...

I don’t want my climbing future dictated by consequences of inappropriate sport filler routes / inappropriate bolts in general.

If the new standards of development, as has precipitated the current controversy, occurs in my patch they will quietly disappear; ... because I don’t like playing russian roulette with the future of Australian climbing.
Access T CliffCare
31-Oct-2018
10:49:59 PM
On 31-Oct-2018 Rupert wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>firstly thank you to Tracey and others who regularly go into bat for the
>climbing community. I appreciate the efforts being undertaken to secure
>continued access to climbing locations.
>
>Reading between the lines on Cliffcare's website, it would appear as though
>there is some discussion happening at the moment that could negatively
>impact future access. I feel it is important that we continue to have positive
>participation in discussions with any other people or groups involved.
>I really hope climbers can follow what CliffCare have requested while this
>gets sorted out.
>
>I'm sure Tracey will be able to keep us updated through the FAQ she referred
>to and perhaps answer a few of the inevitable questions. I know I have
>a few questions too.
>
>Cheers,
>Rupert

I would like to respond to everyone's comments but time doesn't allow me at the moment. Hopefully the FAQ's will answer some questions. I have updated the threads first post with clarification on one point.
I would like to highlight in particular one of your sentences Rupert -
> (snip) it is important that we continue to have positive
>participation in discussions with any other people or groups involved.
As I noted more info coming, but I can add that we have had some positive discussion.

Thanks,
Tracey

dan_b
1-Nov-2018
3:23:46 AM
Thanks Tracey,
A very disappointing but apparently necessary measure.
I'm not on social media, but assume this has been posted far and wide there?
Cheers,
Dan

Robbie
1-Nov-2018
3:18:00 PM

For the record, I have compiled 5 new routes from V.C.C. Inc's, ARGUS newsletter. Dating from 2001 >2016
AND
Red Rock Bushland Reserve is, A.K.A. - Black Ian’s Rocks
It might help for research purposes, if the correct name is used. For instance, try and find Bundaleer on a topographical map for the Gramps. Stony Peak. AKA's are fine with me. Just remember, "first things first."

Goshen
1-Nov-2018
4:24:46 PM
> UPDATE: Just to clarify - this voluntary moratorium was NOT initiated by Parks Victoria. It is a request from the VCC/CliffCare to temporarily refrain from establishing any new routes.

I'd expect this kind of blanket ban from parks; but not from the representative of Victorian climbers...

How about: No new BOLTED CRAGS to be developed for one year, and no new routes at Black Ians (or name other affected crags). That gets to the heart of the problem, without restricting the 'general freedom' of climbing.

Unless Bushwalking is also banned; I see no difference between tramping across the base of a cliff, and wandering up it with an occasional piece of gear, leaving no trace of actually even being there; as a Trad FA nearly always is.

If bouldering is an issue, that requires some extra / different guidelines. They are done differently; if a sensitive / protected area contains caves / boulders that are importance; ban bouldering there. Real climbers have no interest in boulders.


jkane
1-Nov-2018
6:53:24 PM
According to "The Crag" as of today, there are 674 sport routes in the Grampians (all areas) with at least one star and there are 833 sport routes in total. Grades range from grade 7 to grade 33.



marky
1-Nov-2018
7:31:13 PM
@Goshen- There not saying we can’t climb in the Grampians only to stop development of new routes for 12months to be reviewed.

goshen
4-Nov-2018
1:54:24 PM
Ah, no... Just confirmed by monteith, climbing is now banned at the majority of crags in the vic range. I can't believe few others seem concerned about this, this latest who-ha was never about new routes, i think it was the vcc trying to offer an olive branch before TSHTF.

ajfclark
4-Nov-2018
2:06:56 PM
On 4-Nov-2018 goshen wrote:
>Ah, no... Just confirmed by monteith, climbing is now banned at the majority
>of crags in the vic range. I can't believe few others seem concerned about
>this, this latest who-ha was never about new routes, i think it was the
>vcc trying to offer an olive branch before TSHTF.

@nmontieth's post is public, so even people without a facebook account can see it here: http://www.facebook.com/neil.monteith/posts/10155638788436174
Access T CliffCare
4-Nov-2018
9:40:51 PM
Please read the official response from Parks Victoria and share.

VCC & CliffCare will be continuing our discussions and will keep the climbing community informed.

PARKS VICTORIA STATEMENT

Rock climbing permissions in the Grampians National Park remain unchanged. Climbing is permitted at appropriate sites outlined in the Grampians National Park Management Plan. https://parkweb.vic.gov.au/…/0018/313281/grampians-np-mp.pdf

Parks Victoria Rangers undertake regular patrols in key areas of the park to ensure respect of cultural and environmental values. The Grampians National Park Management Plan encourages the use of minimal impact and clean climbing techniques. All park users are required to observe national parks regulations which govern the preservation and protection of environmental and cultural heritage in our parks.


The good Dr
4-Nov-2018
10:04:40 PM
On 4-Nov-2018 Access T CliffCare wrote:
>Please read the official response from Parks Victoria and share.
>
>VCC & CliffCare will be continuing our discussions and will keep the climbing
>community informed.
>
>PARKS VICTORIA STATEMENT
>
>Rock climbing permissions in the Grampians National Park remain unchanged.
>Climbing is permitted at appropriate sites outlined in the Grampians National
>Park Management Plan. https://parkweb.vic.gov.au/…/0018/313281/grampians-np-mp.pdf
>
>Parks Victoria Rangers undertake regular patrols in key areas of the park
>to ensure respect of cultural and environmental values. The Grampians National
>Park Management Plan encourages the use of minimal impact and clean climbing
>techniques. All park users are required to observe national parks regulations
>which govern the preservation and protection of environmental and cultural
>heritage in our parks.
>
>

As dot pointed in section 6.7 - Permit rock climbing and abseiling in the park, excluding Reference Areas or other specified areas, in accordance with Parks Victoria’s operational policies.


There is no publicly available operational policy that I could find.
Access T CliffCare
4-Nov-2018
10:49:53 PM
On 4-Nov-2018 The good Dr wrote:
>On 4-Nov-2018 Access T CliffCare wrote:
>>Please read the official response from Parks Victoria and share.
>>
>>PARKS VICTORIA STATEMENT
>>
>>Rock climbing permissions in the Grampians National Park remain unchanged.
>>Climbing is permitted at appropriate sites outlined in the Grampians
>National
>>Park Management Plan. https://parkweb.vic.gov.au/…/0018/313281/grampians-np-mp.pdf
>>
>>Parks Victoria Rangers undertake regular patrols in key areas of the
>park
>>to ensure respect of cultural and environmental values. The Grampians
>National
>>Park Management Plan encourages the use of minimal impact and clean climbing
>>techniques. All park users are required to observe national parks regulations
>>which govern the preservation and protection of environmental and cultural
>>heritage in our parks.
>>
>>
>
>As dot pointed in section 6.7 - Permit rock climbing and abseiling in
>the park, excluding Reference Areas or other specified areas, in accordance
>with Parks Victoria’s operational policies.
>
>
>There is no publicly available operational policy that I could find.

https://cliffcare.org.au/current-access-campaigns/parks-victoria-climbing-code-of-conduct-update-proposal/
armstp
6-Nov-2018
12:11:45 AM
Is there a link to a better quality version of the map that is on Neil's site? Are all the pink bits on that map closed to climbing? I can't make enough sense of the murky version on facebook to tell exactly what is what.

ajfclark
6-Nov-2018
1:36:31 AM
On 6-Nov-2018 armstp wrote:
>Is there a link to a better quality version of the map that is on Neil's
>site? Are all the pink bits on that map closed to climbing? I can't make
>enough sense of the murky version on facebook to tell exactly what is
>what.

Not really. All the maps from the management plan and the pamplette are very hard to read.

Parks has released a statement that says everything is as it was.

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