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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 7 of 7. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140
Author
Fixed gear guidelines in the Grampians

Goshen
19-May-2018
2:04:43 PM
I see the cliffcare feedback system links back to this forum... which is ok for a start, I guess - although wading through 6+ pages of comments and interpreting them could get a bit tedious (even less attractive for FB).

Perhaps consider making a detailed survey, which draws out useful info from people; perhaps in a way where the sport climbing hordes can't en-mass bombard it with "I'm a Gym climber; please place bolts everywhere".

Access T CliffCare
19-May-2018
2:44:05 PM
On 19-May-2018 Goshen wrote:
>I see the cliffcare feedback system links back to this forum... which is
>ok for a start, I guess - although wading through 6+ pages of comments
>and interpreting them could get a bit tedious (even less attractive for
>FB).
>
>Perhaps consider making a detailed survey, which draws out useful info
>from people; perhaps in a way where the sport climbing hordes can't en-mass
>bombard it with "I'm a Gym climber; please place bolts everywhere".

Hi Goshen,

Without derailing this convo too much -Yes, links back to here and as noted in the post, this is just for a start. With regards to these conversations this has been something that I have been deliberating on for quite a while as to the best and easiest way to manage this kind of feedback. There isn't really an easy way. Surveys have been on the list and they have pros and cons but could still be used. I am also looking at a dedicated Wordpress style forum for these topics once a bit more of a draft is in place but that will also require me or someone else to approve each post. Still will need to wad through comments though. It's all a bit clunky, but we will get there.

Cheers, Tracey

JamesMc
19-May-2018
3:42:08 PM
Might be worthwhile seeing what Tourism Victoria, not just Parks Victoria think of this???

There's been a lot of work to develop tourism from bushwalking in Victoria to support local economies. (I'm thinking Grampians Peaks Trail, Falls to Hotham track etc, some of which is admittedly controversial in the bushwalking community).

I doubt Tourism Victoria even know that people come from all over the world to climb here - but they should.

IMHO the fastest growing sector of climbing is not bouldering, it's not big adventures at Rosea, it's easy sport climbing. Ever wondered why there are so many posts on Chockstone from people who have lost gear at the Back Wall at Camels Hump? It's because climbers there are packed so tightly they get their stuff mixed up. The routes at the Back Wall probably get more ascents than any others in Victoria in spite of their limited season.

Teen grade sport is the future of climbing. It has barely started off in the Grampians. Should it be stillborn?

JamesMc

Pass the popcorn
One Day Hero
19-May-2018
4:31:46 PM
On 19-May-2018 JamesMc wrote:
>Teen grade sport is the future of climbing. It has barely started off
>in the Grampians. Should it be stillborn?

I vote for post natal abortion.

Why do we accept walking tracks in national parks, but not trailbike tracks? Lookouts but not waterslides? One of the main reasons that parks exist in any kind of natural state is that managers and users have drawn a line on what development is acceptable. Low grade sport climbing is toproping for dipshits who need to feel like they're not toproping. Fat, unco idiots and their fragile egos shouldn't be pandered to.

Jayford4321
19-May-2018
6:45:20 PM
On 19-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>>On 19-May-2018 JamesMc wrote:
>>Teen grade sport is the future of climbing. It has barely started off in the Grampians. Should it be stillborn?
>
>I vote for post natal abortion.

Go ODH who is back to fine form. I vote for deknackering (cripple the drills at park gate by taking the batteries) so we don't need the bortions to start with!

On 18-May-2018 bigchris wrote:
>>M9 wrote:
>>I was already aware of the Yosemite ethic of hand drilled bolting only
>>which sic;
>>>
inherently limits the number of those bolts by requiring
>>that they be hand drilled.

>>and find this a workable though intriguing solution, as it effectively
>>puts the brakes on rampant development, though conjours up quality control
>>issues...
>
>I saw multiple famous climbers in Yosemite in Sept with drills, so while it might be the rule it definitely doesn't get followed.

If that's the case there (and likely similar for the other countries links?) , then the final outcome for moratorium and consulting and consensus (ha ha) in Oz , is likely to be a crock too.
Then again , you recently bolted in a park as well so you'd likely understand the sentiment. Did you notice any choppers too?

bigchris
Online Now
19-May-2018
9:36:43 PM
Did you notice any choppers too?



Only the ones parked at search and rescue ;)
Wendy
20-May-2018
7:40:01 AM
Latest thoughts for the morning:

I realise there is a demand for easy sport climbing. I donít mind the concept in theory. The problem I have in practice is that easy sport climbing is actually rare. There just isnít a lot of rock screaming out for it. If people find some decent rock with easy climbing and no gear that hasnít been done before and the location is suitable to survive an onslaught of climbers with manageable environmental and cultural impacts, then Iím fine with people developing easy sport crags. However, there arenít, and that is why I continue to state (somewhat more politely but within the same realm as Damo) that those people clamouring for easy sport climbing have 2 choices Ė learn to place gear and open up a world of easy climbing, or get better, and open up a world of decent rock without gear that is suitable for sport climbing.


Next thoughts are about the VCC bolting policy. Itís long. Most people arenít going to read through 4 pages plus some references before they go develop something. So if we canít convey a whole policy concisely, we need a ďquick referenceĒ summary to get out there for people to refer to. But I do think the policy is unnecessarily verbose and could be tightened up a lot.

Some points on it sound as if participants in the discussion were getting caught up in a few personal bug bears. For example, bolts should be placed to ensure a safe fall, not to minimise fall. Sport climbing always involves more bolts than just ensuring a safe fall. Otherwise, youíd barely put any bolts in the top half of a route. We arenít creating sport head points here. In fact, it sort of doesnít really consider sport crags at all, eg not having lower offs at the top of every route, using trad anchors where possible. These are really only considerations at trad/mixed crags.

Carrot equivalents! Argh! Can we not use best modern equipment for the job/rocktype? This applies to any reference to replacing gear or placing gear. EG, replacing fixed hanger with a fixed hanger is inappropriate on a lot of Grampians rock, where glue ins are the best equipment for the job/rocktype.

I love point 5.10., can someone show that to Malcolm re the fixed thread on Monkey Puzzle? Jokes aside, I think itís a perfectly reasonable example of replacing fixed gear with best equipment available. It also raises questions about what to do when the first ascensionist has not used best equipment available Ė this doesnít just apply to older routes, there are some people using poor practices on new routes still. Do the choices of the first ascensionist have more weight than best practice recommendations?

Also worth noting is this is a bolting policy, not a route/crag development policy. So thereís a lot of stuff discussed in this thread that is extra to this policy.

Maybe we need several documents Ė say one of technical recommendations, one of principles of bolting at sport crags, one of principles of bolting at trad crags, one on crag development, one on rebolting/retrobolting. Iím not sure if that ends up being easier for people to digest than one long document covering all or not, but it does offer an opportunity for clear delineation.


Access T CliffCare
20-May-2018
9:51:08 AM
On 20-May-2018 Wendy wrote:
>Latest thoughts for the morning:
>
>I realise there is a demand for easy sport climbing. I donít mind the
>concept in theory. The problem I have in practice is that easy sport climbing
>is actually rare. There just isnít a lot of rock screaming out for it.
>If people find some decent rock with easy climbing and no gear that hasnít
>been done before and the location is suitable to survive an onslaught of
>climbers with manageable environmental and cultural impacts, then Iím fine
>with people developing easy sport crags. However, there arenít, and that
>is why I continue to state (somewhat more politely but within the same
>realm as Damo) that those people clamouring for easy sport climbing have
>2 choices Ė learn to place gear and open up a world of easy climbing, or
>get better, and open up a world of decent rock without gear that is suitable
>for sport climbing.
>
>
>Next thoughts are about the VCC bolting policy. Itís long. Most people
>arenít going to read through 4 pages plus some references before they go
>develop something. So if we canít convey a whole policy concisely, we need
>a ďquick referenceĒ summary to get out there for people to refer to. But
>I do think the policy is unnecessarily verbose and could be tightened up
>a lot.
>
>Some points on it sound as if participants in the discussion were getting
>caught up in a few personal bug bears. For example, bolts should be placed
>to ensure a safe fall, not to minimise fall. Sport climbing always involves
>more bolts than just ensuring a safe fall. Otherwise, youíd barely put
>any bolts in the top half of a route. We arenít creating sport head points
>here. In fact, it sort of doesnít really consider sport crags at all, eg
>not having lower offs at the top of every route, using trad anchors where
>possible. These are really only considerations at trad/mixed crags.
>
>Carrot equivalents! Argh! Can we not use best modern equipment for the
>job/rocktype? This applies to any reference to replacing gear or placing
>gear. EG, replacing fixed hanger with a fixed hanger is inappropriate on
>a lot of Grampians rock, where glue ins are the best equipment for the
>job/rocktype.
>
>I love point 5.10., can someone show that to Malcolm re the fixed thread
>on Monkey Puzzle? Jokes aside, I think itís a perfectly reasonable example
>of replacing fixed gear with best equipment available. It also raises questions
>about what to do when the first ascensionist has not used best equipment
>available Ė this doesnít just apply to older routes, there are some people
>using poor practices on new routes still. Do the choices of the first ascensionist
>have more weight than best practice recommendations?
>
>Also worth noting is this is a bolting policy, not a route/crag development
>policy. So thereís a lot of stuff discussed in this thread that is extra
>to this policy.
>
>Maybe we need several documents Ė say one of technical recommendations,
>one of principles of bolting at sport crags, one of principles of bolting
>at trad crags, one on crag development, one on rebolting/retrobolting.
>Iím not sure if that ends up being easier for people to digest than one
>long document covering all or not, but it does offer an opportunity for
>clear delineation.

Hi Wendy,
It would be great to keep the thread as closely on track as possible.

As noted on a couple of posts, the VCC Bolt Policy is currently being revised. And I think there is room for comment on that but possibly not on this thread. I understand they are linked but there is already enough information on the topic at hand to keep people busy. Those that have followed from the start may be a bit more on top of it but anyone that comes in new could very well head off down this tangent and then the main topic is lost. Whilst Fixed Protection and Development guidelines in the Grampians is on Chockstone it would be good to get as much info as possible as easily as possible to work into a draft form.

Cheers,
Tracey
Wendy
20-May-2018
1:24:58 PM
On 20-May-2018 Access T CliffCare wrote:

>
>Hi Wendy,
>It would be great to keep the thread as closely on track as possible.
>
>As noted on a couple of posts, the VCC Bolt Policy is currently being
>revised. And I think there is room for comment on that but possibly not
>on this thread. I understand they are linked but there is already enough
>information on the topic at hand to keep people busy. Those that have followed
>from the start may be a bit more on top of it but anyone that comes in
>new could very well head off down this tangent and then the main topic
>is lost. Whilst Fixed Protection and Development guidelines in the Grampians
>is on Chockstone it would be good to get as much info as possible as easily
>as possible to work into a draft form.
>
>Cheers,
>Tracey

Maybe you could post some questions to guide discussion to what you need to find out? Because I'm not sure that it's clear what we are actually discussing anywhere on this thread!
Access T CliffCare
21-May-2018
8:59:35 AM
On 20-May-2018 Wendy wrote:
>On 20-May-2018 Access T CliffCare wrote:
>
>>
>>Hi Wendy,
>>It would be great to keep the thread as closely on track as possible.
>>
>>As noted on a couple of posts, the VCC Bolt Policy is currently being
>>revised. And I think there is room for comment on that but possibly not
>>on this thread. I understand they are linked but there is already enough
>>information on the topic at hand to keep people busy. Those that have
>followed
>>from the start may be a bit more on top of it but anyone that comes in
>>new could very well head off down this tangent and then the main topic
>>is lost. Whilst Fixed Protection and Development guidelines in the Grampians
>>is on Chockstone it would be good to get as much info as possible as
>easily
>>as possible to work into a draft form.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Tracey
>
>Maybe you could post some questions to guide discussion to what you need
>to find out? Because I'm not sure that it's clear what we are actually
>discussing anywhere on this thread!

Hi Wendy,

I will put some info together and get something up hopefully Wednesday when I next tackle CliffCare work. This weekend has been pretty full with emails and messages on the topic. As noted, this conversation will move elsewhere soon for a broader feedback. And as is probably already known, there are a lot of people that won't come, or at least comment on Chockstone anymore and people have approached me noting so. But there is feedback on here that is useful, great starting points and I'm sure more feedback to come. I've been following this from the start so it's a little easier to keep on top of things rather than when you come in half way and don't read it all. It's a little easier....not super easy though :-)

Cheers,
Tracey
One Day Hero
22-May-2018
3:04:31 PM
I pretty much agree with Wendy on most of this stuff (shocking, I know). Kieran's version is too black and white, although I can see how that might make it easier to digest for non-climber parks types.

To maintain some type of normality, I'll focus on the couple of bits of Wendy's plan which I don't agree with.
- Glue in carrots are fine, user error is the only failure mode seen in the field. No more dangerous than trad gear, super easy to replace without drilling new holes, and much less visually intrusive (for spots where that is a concern).

- The fixed tat on Monkey Puzzle is hilarious. You can back it up by pushing a cam in there if it scares you, and nobody falls getting to the next bolt anyway. If someone breaks it and dies then fuch 'em, shouldn't have been so useless.

ajfclark
22-May-2018
3:42:59 PM
On 22-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>- Glue in carrots are fine, user error is the only failure mode seen in
>the field. No more dangerous than trad gear, super easy to replace without
>drilling new holes, and much less visually intrusive (for spots where that
>is a concern).

Didn't someone peel one off a bolt at KP falling on it when it was inverted?
dalai
22-May-2018
8:03:52 PM
On 22-May-2018 ajfclark wrote:
>On 22-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>>- Glue in carrots are fine, user error is the only failure mode seen
>in
>>the field. No more dangerous than trad gear, super easy to replace without
>>drilling new holes, and much less visually intrusive (for spots where
>that
>>is a concern).
>
>Didn't someone peel one off a bolt at KP falling on it when it was inverted?

I've personally seen a quickdraw unclip itself from a ringbolt too - was belaying the guy at the time! No system is infallible.

ajfclark
23-May-2018
6:46:42 AM
On 22-May-2018 dalai wrote:
>On 22-May-2018 ajfclark wrote:
>>On 22-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>>>user error is the only failure mode seen in the field.
>>
>>Didn't someone peel one off a bolt at KP falling on it when it was inverted?
>
>I've personally seen a quickdraw unclip itself from a ringbolt too - was belaying the guy at the time! No system is infallible.

Yes, but no one said the only failure mode of ring bolts was user error.
gfdonc
23-May-2018
7:05:27 AM
On 22-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>- Glue in carrots are fine, user error is the only failure mode seen in
>the field.

They will be when someone invents a bolt hanger that doesn't bend off at 8kN.
Up until then, treat as rusty pitons.
One Day Hero
23-May-2018
7:37:51 AM
On 23-May-2018 ajfclark wrote:
>Yes, but no one said the only failure mode of ring bolts
>was user error.

Oops, I meant to say only failure mode not shared by every other bolt type.
One Day Hero
23-May-2018
7:40:06 AM
On 23-May-2018 gfdonc wrote:
>They will be when someone invents a bolt hanger that doesn't bend off
>at 8kN.

It's 8kN now, is it? How come it never happens?

ajfclark
23-May-2018
7:55:03 AM
On 23-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 23-May-2018 ajfclark wrote:
>>Yes, but no one said the only failure mode of ring bolts
>>was user error.
>
>Oops, I meant to say only failure mode not shared by every other bolt
>type.

They all flip upside down and get peeled off like a soft drink can pull tab?

http://www.tapatalk.com/groups/queenslandclimbing/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=1846&p=18606&hilit=bolt+plate+accident#p18606
gfdonc
23-May-2018
8:43:56 AM
On 23-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>It's 8kN now, is it? How come it never happens?

"When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind. What Do You Do, Sir?"
(attributed to Paul Samuelson)
One Day Hero
23-May-2018
9:42:03 AM
Can you give us a link to the test where brackets peel at 8kN?

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