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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 5 of 12. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 224
Author
Fixed gear guidelines in the Grampians
Wendy
16-May-2018
4:22:59 AM
On 15-May-2018 Duang Daunk wrote:

>
>>What, you don't think that the spread of DW style development would lead
>to PV involvement? I'm not saying that I think a few mixed routes at Rosea
>will lead to wholescale bolting there, but that if it did, it would probably
>come to the attention of PV.
>
>Of course DW style of bolting spreading to other areas should rightly
>concern PV. The wonder is that they haven't sent heavy duty messages to
>us already about DW.
>It also concerns ODH, and FatBoy, and me and my minions!, plus some other
>bro's and sisters who I will call the silent majority, you know, those
>ones that will whinge when their liberty to climb sport is banned by PV
>or other State equivalents...

Meh to silent majorities. Silence is a form of being complicit. If they won't to keep climbing, they need to take some responsibility for managing climbing areas. Which i don't think most climbers do. See historical rants about climbers and rubbish, shitting, vegetation destruction, ignoring PV and TO requests etc etc.
>
>Btw, I've met bro Joe G and we are on amicable terms, it just shits me
>his lowest common denominator sense of safetyising everything he puts up,
>irrespective of whether those routes are in predominantly bold-ish trad
>areas; and for bro bigchris's benefit, I've also met bro muki and discussed
>with him his retroing of Alis chains at the piles. He doesn't intimidate
>me and it didn't take guts to talk about it with him, so your keyboard
>warrior comment (New bolt on Blimp - Bundaleer thread), is way off mark.

Great, I'm glad someone is talking about this with the actual people involved (although ali's was a long time ago now, there are a few more you could raise since). But i still reckon that that bloody silent majority aren't or are actually giving positive feedback, because it continues.
>
>>Perhaps calling to "climbing ethics" is no longer really going to be
>a very effective call, because the population and the culture is changing.
>What the majority consider normal has shifted.
>
>Yes it has shifted - To the What about me, I'm entitled and it isn't fair,
>I haven't bolted enough and I want more share - mentality.

That's not ethics, that's modern western attitudes in general. But it doesn't change that you want to appeal to something that for most people doesn't exist anymore. They might not even have heard of ideas you consider standard.

>Irrespective of the moratorium even if it was set at sea level, some of
>us have had enough and are now going choppo-recalcitrant, and Gordy types
>are soon going to be outnumbered.
>If you think it won't have an effect and work for balance eventually,
>then read some history on the bolt wars of Cornwall and other southern
>UK climbing hotspots of yesteryear. Feel free to call this attitude climber
>self regulation if you like!
>

We are not in the UK and we are not in yesteryear. I'd look forward to watching the battle rage between you, Damo, Gordy and Muki but it would just be the rock and the environment that suffered in the end.

Im getting kinda bored of macho bolt chopping ranting. I've put up my suggested guidelines, can some per crag advocate put up their suggestions and can some VCC already has one person put up a copy of that? Even if the community agree that bolt chopping rampages were the way forward, we need someway of agreeing on what bolts get chopped. Otherwise, it's just the opinion of individual choppers vs individual bolters.
>
>
>
>
>
One Day Hero
16-May-2018
6:03:19 AM
There's already a bolt war going on, you don't recognize it because only one side is shooting. You're also running with the common fallacy of 'bolt wars damage the rock'. People who drill holes damage the rock, pulling bolts out of those holes doesn’t.
One Day Hero
16-May-2018
6:23:38 AM
1. Declaration of 'full crags'. Let's not worry about margin cases now, start with the easy ones. e.g.Golden Fleece wall is full. If anyone wants to place a bolt anywhere between Squeakeasy and Horrorscope, they need to do public consultation first, because the community doesn't think there's any room for new bolts on that wall.
gfdonc
16-May-2018
6:43:08 AM
Wendy wrote:
> People keep driving around gates to get in there.
Just to set the record straight, there's an alternate access route in use that's not gated and has become the standard means of driving to Dreamtime.
I do, however, strongly suggest our Access Officer lobbies to keep Henham track open over winter, as DTW is after all a winter crag.

> People create new bush camps there.
Uh - what issue do you have with people camping in National Parks, using the resource?
Wendy
16-May-2018
7:13:21 AM
On 16-May-2018 gfdonc wrote:
>Wendy wrote:
>> People keep driving around gates to get in there.
>Just to set the record straight, there's an alternate access route in
>use that's not gated and has become the standard means of driving to Dreamtime.
>I do, however, strongly suggest our Access Officer lobbies to keep Henham
>track open over winter, as DTW is after all a winter crag.
>
>> People create new bush camps there.
>Uh - what issue do you have with people camping in National Parks, using
>the resource?
>

Because sadly they lead to clearing of more and more space around them, same with parking areas, same with driving around gates or eroded bits of track. People don't seem to be very good at reutilising the already impacted areas.
Wendy
16-May-2018
7:18:34 AM
On 16-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>1. Declaration of 'full crags'. Let's not worry about margin cases now,
>start with the easy ones. e.g.Golden Fleece wall is full. If anyone wants
>to place a bolt anywhere between Squeakeasy and Horrorscope, they need
>to do public consultation first, because the community doesn't think there's
>any room for new bolts on that wall.

Correction, damo doesn't think there's room .... has anyone actually tried to put a bolted route in there anyway? I agree, it would be dumb.

So you have picked a 50 m section of cliff out of how many many kms of cliff around here? You've got a long long way to go on this delineation of individual crags. Better get cracking. Then remember we need to get some sort of agreement on it.
Wendy
16-May-2018
7:20:57 AM
On 16-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>There's already a bolt war going on, you don't recognize it because only
>one side is shooting. You're also running with the common fallacy of 'bolt
>wars damage the rock'. People who drill holes damage the rock, pulling
>bolts out of those holes doesn’t.

God, more meh. Spare me. They go back in, or they go in elsewhere, ad infinitum.

bigchris
16-May-2018
7:55:17 AM
>God, more meh. Spare me. They go back in, or they go in elsewhere, ad
>infinitum.


Yep. Agree.

FYI - I am watching this thread with great interest and having nothing of importance to add in regards to actually bolting anything or not. However it reminds me of my students in Year 8 arguing over the top of each other.

This thread is:

10 people v 1 person.

It's also 10 people talking about what they think is best for the entirety of rock climbing in Australia. You're all trying to do the right thing and that's really good. But in 87 responses to the the original post, no-one has gotten any closer to sorting anything out. And even if you did magically sort anything out, you've probably reached less than 1% of the climbing community in Australia, let alone the rest of the world.

I get that there is a thing called 'local ethics' that we all should adhere to, but as previously stated, its unlikely that this is always going to happen. If you see a line that you can climb that needs some bolts, who's going to be there to stop you from putting them in?

Many people have boycotted this website because of threads like this. I, on the other hand, am finding it entertaining to watch everyone try and yell over the top of each other via a keyboard.

Just in case you didn't know, you can buy yourself a sweet hammer drill from Bunnings for $200 and a handful of bolts for $30, which makes bolting more accessible than listening to people arguing about it.

I actually have no idea where I was going with this but I did have a long-forgotten point :D
kieranl
16-May-2018
8:34:51 AM
The point of the thread isn't to solve the issue. The point is to start a conversation with the people and trolls who still look at this site about how we can manage crag development in the Grampians.

These internet forums are imperfect places to hold good conversations. Thread drift, trolling, personal attacks, anonymous users are all part of lightly moderated forums. There's nothing unique about chockstone in this regard. So we might make loud noises here, but it doesn't mean we are necessarily as important as we like to think.

Most of the important stuff is in the first few posts.

At this stage it's about the Grampians. If a good process comes out of it then it should transfer to other places.

Apart from Stapylton where there is a complex mix of trad, sport, and bouldering I think we can generally look at areas rather than individual crags or faces.

So, The Fortress Massif could be looked at as a whole.

It's in a remote and Natural Area. There are nearby indigenous sites. Historically it's almost exclusively trad. I heard that there is one sport route but I don't know where it is. There is a major mixed climb with about 10 bolts on the Crimson Tower. There may be some belay bolts below the roof on Passport placed subsequent to the FA.

My take on this would be : No further fixed gear, either bolts, pitons or slings in the Fortress Massif. Remove the sport climb. Leave any belay bolts below Passport roof as removing them will likely result in retreat slings being added. Consult further regarding whether to remove mixed route on Crimson Tower; I would opt for remove.




FatBoy
16-May-2018
8:41:42 AM
On 16-May-2018 bigchris wrote:
>>God, more meh. Spare me. They go back in, or they go in elsewhere, ad
>>infinitum.
>
>
>Yep. Agree.
>
>FYI - I am watching this thread with great interest and having nothing
>of importance to add in regards to actually bolting anything or not. However
>it reminds me of my students in Year 8 arguing over the top of each other.
>
>This thread is:
>
>10 people v 1 person.
>
>It's also 10 people talking about what they think is best for the entirety
>of rock climbing in Australia. You're all trying to do the right thing
>and that's really good. But in 87 responses to the the original post, no-one
>has gotten any closer to sorting anything out. And even if you did magically
>sort anything out, you've probably reached less than 1% of the climbing
>community in Australia, let alone the rest of the world.
>
>I get that there is a thing called 'local ethics' that we all should adhere
>to, but as previously stated, its unlikely that this is always going to
>happen. If you see a line that you can climb that needs some bolts, who's
>going to be there to stop you from putting them in?
>
>Many people have boycotted this website because of threads like this.
>I, on the other hand, am finding it entertaining to watch everyone try
>and yell over the top of each other via a keyboard.
>
>Just in case you didn't know, you can buy yourself a sweet hammer drill
>from Bunnings for $200 and a handful of bolts for $30, which makes bolting
>more accessible than listening to people arguing about it.
>
>I actually have no idea where I was going with this but I did have a long-forgotten
>point :D
>

This is the most depressing response of all. It essentially amounts to "nothing we say will matter anyway so why bother ?"

How is that other areas of the world with clearly established local ethics manage to keep them ? Are we that hopeless over here ? I'm not so certain I share your cynicism. A clearly defined ethic, endorsed by the VCC (without this bit it's useless), published in VL, Argus, here and on thecrag would cover 99%. The remainder could be enforced by those who care about it.

After re-reading everything, I think the real problem is that Victoria doesn't have an established ethic. "Minimal bolts" ? Sure, except if it's a red cave somewhere in which case, fuggit, let's turn it into a sport area ... or if it happens to be next to other sports areas. Or if it's just in an area that wouldn't be climbed otherwise. It's inconsistent, confusing and the bolters are taking advantage of that confusion. The rest of the world ? They can abide by our ethic once we actually know WTF it is. Understanding the local ethic is a pretty normal part of climbing elsewhere.

I'm also annoyed at your (implied) suggestion that Chocky is irrelevant. It's the only place where any decent conversation is going on. If others want to stick their fingers in their ears, that's fine but you lose the right to complain when a decision is made that you don't agree with. They know it's here.

FatBoy
16-May-2018
8:47:21 AM
On 16-May-2018 kieranl wrote:
>The point of the thread isn't to solve the issue. The point is to start
>a conversation with the people and trolls who still look at this site about
>how we can manage crag development in the Grampians.
>
>These internet forums are imperfect places to hold good conversations.
>Thread drift, trolling, personal attacks, anonymous users are all part
>of lightly moderated forums. There's nothing unique about chockstone in
>this regard. So we might make loud noises here, but it doesn't mean we
>are necessarily as important as we like to think.
>
>Most of the important stuff is in the first few posts.
>
>At this stage it's about the Grampians. If a good process comes out of
>it then it should transfer to other places.
>
>Apart from Stapylton where there is a complex mix of trad, sport, and
>bouldering I think we can generally look at areas rather than individual
>crags or faces.
>
>So, The Fortress Massif could be looked at as a whole.
>
>It's in a remote and Natural Area. There are nearby indigenous sites.
>Historically it's almost exclusively trad. I heard that there is one sport
>route but I don't know where it is. There is a major mixed climb with
>about 10 bolts on the Crimson Tower. There may be some belay bolts below
>the roof on Passport placed subsequent to the FA.
>
>My take on this would be : No further fixed gear, either bolts, pitons
>or slings in the Fortress Massif. Remove the sport climb. Leave any belay
>bolts below Passport roof as removing them will likely result in retreat
>slings being added. Consult further regarding whether to remove mixed route
>on Crimson Tower; I would opt for remove.

What's happening - I agree pretty much with all of that. And yes, I'd argue that many have indeed lost sight that it's actually about The Grampians, not my right to climb in a style of my choosing.
The Rock Robster
16-May-2018
9:43:29 AM
On 16-May-2018 bigchris wrote:
>This thread is:
>
>10 people v 1 person.
>
>It's also 10 people talking about what they think is best for the entirety
>of rock climbing in Australia. You're all trying to do the right thing
>and that's really good. But in 87 responses to the the original post, no-one
>has gotten any closer to sorting anything out. And even if you did magically
>sort anything out, you've probably reached less than 1% of the climbing
>community in Australia, let alone the rest of the world.
>
>I get that there is a thing called 'local ethics' that we all should adhere
>to, but as previously stated, its unlikely that this is always going to
>happen. If you see a line that you can climb that needs some bolts, who's
>going to be there to stop you from putting them in?
>
>Many people have boycotted this website because of threads like this.
>I, on the other hand, am finding it entertaining to watch everyone try
>and yell over the top of each other via a keyboard.
>
>Just in case you didn't know, you can buy yourself a sweet hammer drill
>from Bunnings for $200 and a handful of bolts for $30, which makes bolting
>more accessible than listening to people arguing about it.

It may be frustrating but at least it's being spoken about somewhere. Better to argue over the internet for your views than to villify those that are willing to do so.

I do agree however that the endless back and forth hardly helps. We should be agreeing on a point at a time. I think we can all agree that there needs to be some sort of guideline or something that stops people grid-bolting for no reason. Instead of arguing about PV getting involved, and whether slippery slopes exist, we should be discussing the sorts of things that could work. It seems to me that only Kieran and Wendy have made any attempt at that. I'd try but I don't think I'd do a good job.

As for actually responding to Wendy's guidelines, I agree that self-regulating climbers will never happen, so guidelines are essentially useless. I think it would bbetter to agree that bolts on go in where trad can't, except for certain specific cases. Outline some crags as purely sport, and some as purely trad and the rest have the mixed ethic. Makes it less crag-bycrag specific, but allows for the trad mentality or the sport mentality?
gfdonc
16-May-2018
10:26:40 AM
In case it was unclear from my earlier comments, I support Wendy's view.

I don't support the 'blanket ban' on a specific cliff such as Rosea (ever since Neil proposed it), but still support the view that Rosea is predominately a trad cliff.

Interesting that Kieran raised the Fortress. There's another example, Green Gap Pinnacle, which is also remote, large and apparently has a sports route on it (by Ingvar).
Now I'd strongly disagree that anyone should go in and chop that route but I'd also not agree that more sports routes should be put in there.

nmonteith
16-May-2018
10:51:33 AM
I think in general chopping routes that have been around for ages is probably a fairly silly thing to do as it will just antagonize and damage the rock even more usually. I think a bolt moratorium in places like Rosea, Death March, Fortress and Green Gap would be the most agreeable thing that we could agree to.

FatBoy
16-May-2018
11:48:25 AM
In the spirit of trying to be constructive and suggest a solution:

I'd propose a 3 tier structure:
  • Trad only - essentially on the same lines as Kieren's suggestion, but a strict "no new gear" policy ... for Rosea and the Fortress (thanks for bringing this up KL) and any others you feel should be in this category
  • Mixed - Basically the old school Victorian ethic of bolts only when it would be dangerous otherwise, and even then to be used sparingly ... default position for Grampians
  • Sport, we all know what this is, but you'd need to list the specific crags ... VD (actually that whole stretch), Spurt, Ravine, Clean Cuts etc. etc.
Rules around:
  • replacement of existing fixed gear, and
  • lower off anchors
  • any fixed gear for rap anchors
... would be part of the policy for that type of crag (and needs more work to flesh it out).

Then at least we have a framework we can respond to if a land manager complains. "Hey, we hear you, we'll mark that henceforth as a 'Trad only' cliff". That would surely have some value.

jkane
16-May-2018
11:56:07 AM
On 16-May-2018 Wendy wrote:
> ...can some VCC already has one person put up a copy of that?

https://vicclimb.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/VCC-BoltPolicy.pdf

kieranl
16-May-2018
12:06:52 PM
On 16-May-2018 nmonteith wrote:
>I think in general chopping routes that have been around for ages is probably
>a fairly silly thing to do as it will just antagonize and damage the rock
>even more usually. I think a bolt moratorium in places like Rosea, Death
>March, Fortress and Green Gap would be the most agreeable thing that we
>could agree to.

In general I agree that it's preferable not to chop routes "that have been around for ages". But there are times when it may be appropriate or necessary. And of course any damage associated with removing the bolts would have to be taken into account. One of Access_t's posts notes that the placing of bolts which are difficult to remove is also an issue with Parks, so this isn't simple.

How do we say that a climb has been around long enough that it is no longer appropriate to remove the bolts? How long is the time-frame? Do we judge climbs we care about differently to others?

So the single sport route, if it exists, in a remote trad area such as The Fortress should be removed.

The longer mixed route?
Here's some factors that might mitigate in its favour "
- It's on a distinct tower separated from and lower than the rest of The Fortress.
- Mixed as opposed to sport.
- Little prospect of further climbs on this block (I think)
Factors that might go the other way :
- it's lower down and in a valley, may impact on indigenous cultural area. This would have to be based on advice from Parks and Indigenous communities. It's not a climbing judgement.

To me this is something like the process we need to go through with each area. We need to go through a set of parameters, come out with draft recommendation for the area and accept comments.

I picked The Fortress because in some ways it is quite straightforward but it has this one major climb that doesn't fit. It's going to get really messy in the northern Vic Range because the climbing areas are smack in the middle of indigenous sites.

nmonteith
16-May-2018
12:30:00 PM
On 16-May-2018 kieranl wrote:
>How do we say that a climb has been around long enough that it is no longer
>appropriate to remove the bolts? How long is the time-frame? Do we judge
>climbs we care about differently to others?

I actually think the only time bolts should be chopped is if the bolts in question have been complained about - for example if they are visible from major tourist hiking tracks or are in aboriginal caves (Black Ians). Sandinista Wall is one area I think is a contender due to it being a popular spot for tourists to stop and rest.

Fortress - I don't have my guides with me - but isn't there some bolts on the hard Carrigan/Shepherd wall routes left of Passport?

I believe the sport route done by Nick Hanc--k is somewhere on the cliffline where the upper access tracks walk below - so could be visible to tourists and rangers easily. But I haven't seen it myself. Bolts could be rust stains by now - and entirely invisible.
Dave_S
16-May-2018
12:57:42 PM
On 16-May-2018 jkane wrote:
>On 16-May-2018 Wendy wrote:
>> ...can some VCC already has one person put up a copy of that?
>
>https://vicclimb.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/VCC-BoltPolicy.pdf

It should be noted that the VCC committee considers this document to be out of date, and a full rewrite of it has been on our todo list for a while now.
gfdonc
16-May-2018
1:22:01 PM
>On 16-May-2018 jkane wrote:
>>https://vicclimb.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/VCC-BoltPolicy.pdf

That's actually a pretty good document, even if it contradicts itself on a few minor points.

And I note:
5.5. When a piton is intentionally removed it should be replaced with a fixed hanger or ringbolt.

So the Blimp thingy was done according to the guidelines after all. We can pack up and go home now.

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