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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 11 of 12. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 225
Author
Fixed gear guidelines in the Grampians

deadbudgy
31-May-2018
12:18:24 PM
On 30-May-2018 rowan wrote:
>Climbing is a very young sport and could potentially be around for a long
>time.
>

Not sure I agree. I think you might mean 'sport climbing has recently popularized the pursuit by making it more convenient for people who otherwise wouldn't put in the effort'? People have been climbing stuff, as a recreational pursuit, for a long time.
widewetandslippery
31-May-2018
12:46:09 PM
Convenience and sport and adventure and exploration. What a mix. Misquote Hemmingway, motor racing, bull fighting and mountain climbing are the only sports, rest are games. Sport climbing is a late 80s/early 90s thing. Trad is Paul Preuss. Information and it's sharing is the evil,the apple. Don't come to my cliff.
widewetandslippery
31-May-2018
12:47:30 PM
Btw Rowan, how u go, u welcome
rowan
31-May-2018
4:08:59 PM
On 31-May-2018 deadbudgy wrote:

>
>Not sure I agree. I think you might mean 'sport climbing has recently
>popularized the pursuit by making it more convenient for people who otherwise
>wouldn't put in the effort'? People have been climbing stuff, as a recreational
>pursuit, for a long time.

Yeah your right. I meant climbing as a sport with safety bolts in rock.

The good Dr
31-May-2018
5:54:12 PM
On 31-May-2018 rowan wrote:
>On 31-May-2018 deadbudgy wrote:
>
>>
>>Not sure I agree. I think you might mean 'sport climbing has recently
>>popularized the pursuit by making it more convenient for people who otherwise
>>wouldn't put in the effort'? People have been climbing stuff, as a recreational
>>pursuit, for a long time.
>
>Yeah your right. I meant climbing as a sport with safety bolts in rock.


They were bolting routes in the Elbsandstein well over 100 years ago.
One Day Hero
31-May-2018
7:35:11 PM
On 31-May-2018 The good Dr wrote:
>They were bolting routes in the Elbsandstein well over 100 years ago.

Ah yes, the famously over bolted consumer climbing around Dresden.
rowan
31-May-2018
8:22:36 PM
On 31-May-2018 The good Dr wrote:

>
>They were bolting routes in the Elbsandstein well over 100 years ago.

Thats not really that long ago is it?
One Day Hero
31-May-2018
9:00:54 PM
On 31-May-2018 Dave_S wrote:

>It's really only full-sleeve expansion bolts like DynaBolts that could
>be removed, and even then it's with some difficulty. And then they have
>the downside that due to the fact that their threaded part needs to be
>smaller than the hole diameter in order to leave room for the sleeve, they
>require a larger hole than other expansion bolts in order to get the same
>strength.

This is pretty much all wrong. Unrusted full sleeve expansion bolts are generally very quick and easy to replace.
Trubolts can be removed, but it requires more tools and is very time consuming.
Full sleeve expansions are roughly three quarters the strength in sheer (which is what counts).
A 12mm full sleeve stainless expansion is the best bolt for hard rock.....unless you prefer glued in 10mm stainless carrots.

>
>But yes, bolts should absolutely be designed to last as long as
>practical.

Not if a slightly longer lifespan comes at the cost of difficult replacement down the track.

>That means epoxy rather than cheaper adhesives (like Ramset
>101) for glue-ins, stainless 316 for all inland bolts, titanium for marine
>environments, using replaceable lower-off hardware on anchors for popular
>climbs, and ensuring tightenable bolts don't come loose (in order to avoid
>damage to bolt threads when someone falls on a loose hanger).

Ugh! Titanium is overkill at Point Perp. There are 30 year old 316 bolts which look like new.
Full sleeve expansions don't have the hanger sitting on the thread, which is another reason they're better.
Ease of replacement, and reusable holes are the important things. Glue-ins should be small Us or stainless carrots, not recessed rings.
Stugang
31-May-2018
9:27:42 PM
ODH - You say truebolts can be removed....can you give details on how.

Also how does age or rust affect this technique?
Cheers stu
uwhp510
1-Jun-2018
7:49:05 AM
I've pulled a few tru-bolts. Sometimes they come pretty easily and sometimes its a bit of a pain. Got the technique off youtube. Its pretty clever really.

Take off the hanger, tap the bolt in to loosen it from its sleeve, put a washer next to the rock and put the nut back on, just snugish but not tight on the washer. Put another nut on and lock the two nuts together. Spin the bolt with a socket attachment in a drill on the locked together nuts whilst pouring a little bit of water on the bolt, for up to maybe a minute or even two. An impact driver probably works here as well. The screw action of the thread carries the water down to the back of the hole where it mixes with rock dust and makes an abrasive cutting compound. The abrasive allows the inner edge of the sleeve to wear a little step into the cone at the back of the bolt.

Next you need a puller which can either be made or bought. I made one from some high tensile M16 threaded rod, with an M10 sleeve nut welded to the end which goes inside some steam pipe. You thread the sleeve nut onto the bolt, put the steam pipe against the rock around the bolt and wind up the M16 nut until the bolt either comes out cleanly or sometimes snaps off the end of the cone. Sometimes you need to spin the bolt longer with more water to get the little step going. The youtube folk have opted for fancy and expensive hydraulic pullers which work even better.

I'd say that rust would probably make this technique harder/impossible, but that's just a guess since all the bolts I've done have been pretty new.

The end result is that the bolt comes out with only a hole left behind, which gets patched with epoxy and rock dust and basically disappears.
uwhp510
1-Jun-2018
7:54:17 AM
For example;

Patched hole
Dave_S
1-Jun-2018
8:14:36 AM
On 31-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>Unrusted full sleeve expansion bolts are
>generally very quick and easy to replace.

My experience removing them has involved some difficulty, but then that's only been those with a hex nut head, not a bolt head. The process went like this:
1) Remove the nut and hanger.
2) Grind down the thread close to flush with the rock.
3) Push the thread back into sleeve.
4) Insert a star plug (the cheap, household, plastic masonry anchors) into the sleeve.
5) Drill a screw into the star plug, leaving at least 1cm poking out.
6) With pliers, pull on the screw to extract the sleeve.
7) Fish the remains of the thread/cone out of the hole.

Admittedly if it's a hex head dynabolt rather than a thread and nut one, you skip steps 2-3, meaning a grinder isn't required. And if there's enough of the sleeve protruding from the rock to allow you to grip it with pliers then it's even easier.

On 31-May-2018 Stugang wrote:
>ODH - You say truebolts can be removed....can you give details on how.

It appears possible with specialised tools like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec8NLhtIXmw
kieranl
1-Jun-2018
10:19:58 AM
On 1-Jun-2018 Dave_S wrote:
>On 31-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>>Unrusted full sleeve expansion bolts are
>>generally very quick and easy to replace.
>
>My experience removing them has involved some difficulty, but then that's
>only been those with a hex nut head, not a bolt head. The process went
>like this:
>1) Remove the nut and hanger.
>2) Grind down the thread close to flush with the rock.
>3) Push the thread back into sleeve.
>4) Insert a star plug (the cheap, household, plastic masonry anchors)
>into the sleeve.
>5) Drill a screw into the star plug, leaving at least 1cm poking out.
>6) With pliers, pull on the screw to extract the sleeve.
>7) Fish the remains of the thread/cone out of the hole.
>
>Admittedly if it's a hex head dynabolt rather than a thread and nut one,
>you skip steps 2-3, meaning a grinder isn't required. And if there's enough
>of the sleeve protruding from the rock to allow you to grip it with pliers
>then it's even easier.
>

What you're describing suggests that these sleeve bolts aren't correctly installed. Sleeve bolts should be installed with the hanger fitted around the sleeve, not with the top of the sleeve flush with the rock surface.
Dave_S
1-Jun-2018
10:37:37 AM
Yeah, it can happen though, particularly if a 10mm hanger is used with a 12mm sleeve anchor.
One Day Hero
1-Jun-2018
10:56:43 AM
On 1-Jun-2018 Dave_S wrote:
>Yeah, it can happen though, particularly if a 10mm hanger is used with
>a 12mm sleeve anchor.

Well yeah, that sounds like a nightmare. I've not had that problem, Canberra was all bolted with 10mm bolts. Petzl sell hangers with 12mm holes, no reason to ever have the sleeve flush these days.
Stugang
1-Jun-2018
12:45:39 PM
Certainly wasnít unheard of in early 90s when getting decent expansions was a bit harder than it is now.

One route in particular I did like that has bugged me and Iíve wanted to replace them for a while.
dalai
1-Jun-2018
1:20:22 PM
On 1-Jun-2018 Stugang wrote:
>Certainly wasnít unheard of in early 90s when getting decent expansions
>was a bit harder than it is now.
>
>One route in particular I did like that has bugged me and Iíve wanted
>to replace them for a while.

I need to go back and fix one of mine too!
gfdonc
1-Jun-2018
1:47:33 PM
On 1-Jun-2018 kieranl wrote:

>What you're describing suggests that these sleeve bolts aren't correctly
>installed. Sleeve bolts should be installed with the hanger fitted around
>the sleeve, not with the top of the sleeve flush with the rock surface.

Says who?
There was a fair bit of debate among a few bolters I know about this issue a while ago, with no firm consensus.
I'm interested in more facts if you can add. Pros and cons that I recall were:
Pro: Sleeve deeper in the hole is generally a good idea. More rock surface/depth engaged.
Pro: Sleeve flush with the rock generally avoids 'spinners' as the hanger is being tightened against the rock surface.
Con: sleeve inside the hanger means the bolt-to-hanger connection is stronger
Pro: generally bolts are made assuming the sleeve is flush, meaning (depending on the bolt) when you tighten a bolt that has the sleeve inside the hanger, you have a few mm of extra thread protruding above the nut. This can then be tall enough to push a gate open, which is generally accepted to be a bad thing.

There may be a couple of other 'cons' I've forgotten.

Hilti are generally considered expert in this field. Installation on their web site shows the sleeve component flush with the rock/concrete surface, or even recessed slightly. (There's a chart on their web site, for example, that mandates a sleeve recess of 2mm to 8mm depending on the bolt - but never protruding!)
Douglas H
1-Jun-2018
2:15:08 PM
On 15-May-2018 kieranl wrote:
>
>In the Grampians we have a number of frameworks to work within to decide
>how different cliffs and areas are managed. The first, often ignored in
>climbing circles, is the Grampians National Park Management Plan 2003 .
>
>Here are some relevant bits to work out what management applies to climbing
>areas. It's very broad-brush stuff but I don't think we can move anywhere
>without understanding this.
>
>Table 2 : Management Zones and Overlays, Page 18
>Figure 2: Management Zones Map, Page 79
>Appendix 2 : Special Protection Areas, Page 64
>

Just gonna follow up on this with quotes of lines relevant to climbers that haven't read it.

>Visitorsí activities, if not adequately managed, can have significant adverse impacts on the parkís natural, cultural and recreational values.
Some visitor activities that can have significant impacts are: ∑ inappropriate use of equipment (e.g. climbing bolts)
A key approach is to encourage all visitors to adopt minimumimpact techniques and to adhere to codes of conduct appropriate to their activity.

>Aim ∑ Allow rock climbing and abseiling in appropriate areas, consistent with the protection of park values.
>Management strategies ∑ Permit rock climbing and abseiling in the park, excluding Reference Areas or other specified areas, in accordance with Parks Victoriaís operational policies.
>∑ In conjunction with the rock climbing community, consider, and as appropriate: encourage the use of minimal impact and clean climbing techniques;

PV want us, the climbing community to develop and promote our own codes and guidelines that align with with their values and principles. No code or guideline is ever going to be followed completely, but so long as the greater community support and promote it then we can show our joint commitment to minimal impact practices.

I personally don't want to see more sport climbing. But with the greater community in mind I can see how sport climbing can impact less if we have some regulation and cooperation.
I'd like to see some stipulation in a bolting policy to make any metal disguised/ camouflaged if possible. A disguised bolt is much less visible than a fixed sling imo.
Also to keep fixed gear away from well used tourist or walking tracks.
Stugang
1-Jun-2018
4:35:42 PM
My concern with the route Iím talking about is that I couldnít get enough thread coming out of the nut to make me 100% comfortable that it wouldnít unscrew. I believe that someone has gone up with a socket wrench since then so it may no longer be a problem...but itís a good route so I feel bad about the bolt job not being perfect.

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