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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 10 of 12. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 224
Author
Fixed gear guidelines in the Grampians
johnpitcairn
28-May-2018
7:46:22 AM
My 2c worth as an international visitor:

Easy sport climbing is called a climbing gym. As we start to see more and more new climbers (Olympic sport, remember), there will be more pressure for exactly that. Let it be catered for indoors.

The Gramps are a national park FFS. Bolting, track expansion, gumbies shitting beside the track ... nah. Not attractive to me as a visitor at all.

FatBoy
28-May-2018
9:07:29 AM
On 28-May-2018 johnpitcairn wrote:
>My 2c worth as an international visitor:
>
>Easy sport climbing is called a climbing gym. As we start to see more
>and more new climbers (Olympic sport, remember), there will be more pressure
>for exactly that. Let it be catered for indoors.
>
>The Gramps are a national park FFS. Bolting, track expansion, gumbies
>shitting beside the track ... nah. Not attractive to me as a visitor at
>all.
I wish Chockstone had a +1 feature

Stugang
28-May-2018
9:51:32 AM
On 28-May-2018 johnpitcairn wrote:
>My 2c worth as an international visitor:
>
>Easy sport climbing is called a climbing gym


Says it all. Can we now move on to a different topic
widewetandslippery
28-May-2018
10:11:01 AM
Easy bolted climbing on rock is valid. As are families and sodomy. National Parks can and will control. Keep crags secret, don't glue the odd bolt in, leave the odd death block and heavily bolted crags of easier graded routes remain safe.
jacksonclimbs
28-May-2018
11:31:13 AM
On 28-May-2018 FatBoy wrote:
>On 28-May-2018 johnpitcairn wrote:
>>My 2c worth as an international visitor:
>>
>>Easy sport climbing is called a climbing gym. As we start to see more
>>and more new climbers (Olympic sport, remember), there will be more pressure
>>for exactly that. Let it be catered for indoors.
>>
>>The Gramps are a national park FFS. Bolting, track expansion, gumbies
>>shitting beside the track ... nah. Not attractive to me as a visitor
>at
>>all.
>I wish Chockstone had a +1 feature

+1 - that would be a great feature - adding to the feedback mechanism that I have discussed in another post.

With regards to this. I met KP - the Climbing Category Director at Black Diamond that you see in all those April Fools videos on YouTube, at a crag near SLC. I asked him his thoughts on the issue with the fast growing climbing community and the impact on the outdoors. He noted that their market research suggests that many of the new incoming climbers will never climb outdoors, and that they are only interested in climbing indoors. For every 10 sets of harness/belay device they sell, they only sell a set or two of quick-draws. It is the reason why they have decided to go into climbing shoes.

Not to say that it is not an issue - certainly in the US the access fund are responding with campaigns to educate new climbers on LNT principles etc. The above point may also mask the growth of bouldering, which would not be evident in harness sales.

I'd be interested to see some data breaking down the chosen disciplines of new climbers. My personal observation is that many of the new climbers in the Gramps are boulderers - How do you manage that? The impact of bouldering can be rapid, and is the most accessible of the disciplines. You can chop bolts, but you can't chop boulders unless you decide to chip holds - which would be a very extreme measure. I guess that raises the point that PV concerns may not necessarily be dealt with in a bolting policy alone. Perhaps as a group we need to also adopt a practice of closing off sectors for routine block periods to allow for re-vegetation. - I know they do that at Hueco Tanks as a compromise with other stakeholders.

The good Dr
28-May-2018
11:41:22 AM
Easy bolted routes are amply catered for in Victoria, with many being within easy day trip from Melbourne. The style of development in the Grampians (and Arapiles) does not cater for crags filled with easy bolted routes where natural gear exists, nor should it. Climbing is not about commodification of the outdoors to suit a percieved, or surveyed, demand.

Climbing requires the development of skills, one of which is the placement of 'natural' protection. If you do not want to develop a broad range of skills then you have decieded to personally restrict you access to a broad range of experiences and climbing opportunities. It is not the lack of fixed protection that is limiting the number of routes you can climib, it is a personal choice to limit the options.
Dave_S
28-May-2018
11:46:39 AM
On 28-May-2018 The good Dr wrote:
>The style of development in the Grampians
>(and Arapiles) does not cater for crags filled with easy bolted routes
>where natural gear exists, nor should it.

The style of development in the entirety of Victoria does not cater for crags filled with easy bolted routes where natural gear exists, nor should it.

But this still leaves the question of what degree of bolted route development should be acceptable where protection with natural gear is not possible.
Access T CliffCare
28-May-2018
12:59:07 PM
On 28-May-2018 jacksonclimbs wrote:
(snip)
>
>Not to say that it is not an issue - certainly in the US the access fund
>are responding with campaigns to educate new climbers on LNT principles
>etc. The above point may also mask the growth of bouldering, which would
>not be evident in harness sales.
>
>I'd be interested to see some data breaking down the chosen disciplines
>of new climbers. My personal observation is that many of the new climbers
>in the Gramps are boulderers - How do you manage that? The impact of bouldering
>can be rapid, and is the most accessible of the disciplines. You can chop
>bolts, but you can't chop boulders unless you decide to chip holds - which
>would be a very extreme measure. I guess that raises the point that PV
>concerns may not necessarily be dealt with in a bolting policy alone. Perhaps
>as a group we need to also adopt a practice of closing off sectors for
>routine block periods to allow for re-vegetation. - I know they do that
>at Hueco Tanks as a compromise with other stakeholders.

Hi Jackson,
Actually left a response for you on the Facebook group. With regards to your comments above see here a snippet of a comment I left for someone on another FB post noting Bouldering

********
- There are a number of avenues being addressed with regards to the bigger picture and it's not just about fixed protection in the Grampians. As I have noted in a number of my Access reports last year, this year will see difficult conversations on the table that the climbing community need to address. It all takes time and Access here does not have the same support, money and resources that somewhere like the States does and even that is an involved process with many differing opinions. Education work is being undertaken (it always is as it is neverending) Bouldering issues are being discussed and an education campaign is part of this.
********

This has also been noted and discussed in various Access reports - not sure if you read them. This particular thread on Chockstone is about one particular topic. Those other avenues are also in the process of being looked at. It's a huge job and much easier for feedback to break things down separately. I reference Access Fund regularly as well as other similar organizations across the world. The bigger picture is not just about Fixed Protection. This particular post is. Hopefully some information I am putting together and posting soon via the CliffCare website and social media will give some clarification to that.

shiltz
28-May-2018
3:02:29 PM
The great thing about the Grampians and Arapiles is how easy most of the low-mid grade climbs are to protect with natural gear. There is no need to introduce a pure sport climbing ethic and antagonize other park users in the process. I think we'd all hate to see more crags like the Back Wall in the Eastern Outcrops of Camels Hump popping up around the state, and especially in the Grampians.
One Day Hero
28-May-2018
7:20:10 PM
On 27-May-2018 jacksonclimbs wrote:
>Because most people have adhered to the existing guidelines, have they
>not?

There are no existing guidelines which are readily followed. The bolts are coming, it just took a while for bumblies with drills to feel entitled enough in Victoria (given the ludicrously good easy trad climbing on offer).
>
>Did the other parts of the country with squeeze job routes start out with
>a mix of sport/mixed/trad in a similar ethic that the Grampians currently
>has?

No, they all started out with a ground up ethic because it was the 60s. Modern ideas of trad and sport would have been utterly incomprehensible. Sport climbing didn't exist at all till the 80s, and not really in Australia till the 90s. It wasn't recognized as a colonial threat to other styles until quite recently. Also, it's not up to me or anyone else to educate you. Read up on climbing history.
>
>If that's your intent, then you need to influence more people than you
>chop bolts, and in that aim, you might catch more flies with honey.

Who the hell catches flies with honey? I use mortein.

>>Why do you want bolts next to perfectly good gear placements? If a route
>>is safe as trad or mixed, why would you personally want it to be sport
>>bolted?
>
>I don't want that everywhere - just noting that I think it would be good
>to have a handful of crags with routes in the aforementioned grade range.

I've answered your questions. Can you actually answer this one?

>I believe that's possible, I don't believe the slippery slope argument.

There are bolts going in, if bolts continue to go in there will be more bolts, there is no current mechanism to control the increase in bolts. This is not a slippery slope argument.
One Day Hero
28-May-2018
7:26:21 PM
On 28-May-2018 widewetandslippery wrote:
>Easy bolted climbing on rock is valid. As are families and >sodomy.

Easy bolted climbing up good lines, on good rock, which wouldn't go as trad, is valid. Sodomising families is not valid.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
29-May-2018
10:13:32 AM
On 28-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>Sport climbing didn't exist at all till the 80s, and not really in Australia till the 90s. It wasn't recognized as a colonial threat to other styles until quite recently.

The balance of participant preferences in the climbing game has changed, and even this site reflects that in its numbers - today's Chocky stats for what they are worth...

8190 registered members - Activity Percentage Graph
Gym 66%
Boulder 55%
Top Rope 46%
Sport 65%
Trad Single 57%
Trad Multi 56%
Aid/Big Wall 12%
Ice 16%
Mountain 32%
Not Applicable 22%

Yes, I know, lies damn lies and statistics!
Although there are anomalies with the data especially due many undertake more than one activity, it is still clear that Sport rivals Trad for numbers (65% vs 57%), and has reached the tipping point with its associated bolting actions.

rodw
29-May-2018
10:35:52 AM
You can tick multiple on chocky so not sure how relevant that data is as its really just a snap shot of when that person signs up, not their evolving activity.

Maybe for a more accurate snap shot and trends, you could use thecrag data (if possible) compare year to your types of routes ticks and % to see if a trend in trad vs sport over the last decade.




IdratherbeclimbingM9
29-May-2018
10:46:00 AM
On 29-May-2018 rodw wrote:
>You can tick multiple on chocky so not sure how relevant that data is as
>its really just a snap shot of when that person signs up, not their evolving
>activity.
>
I know (though itís editable by going to your profile), but as ODH pointed out, Sport was once never an option, and even if someone ticks all the boxes then it indicates their interest in Sport equals whatever else they ticked.

>Maybe for a more accurate snap shot and trends, you could use thecrag
>data (if possible) compare year to your types of routes ticks and % to
>see if a trend in trad vs sport over the last decade.
>
Probably, but I don't use thecrag for ticking, though sometimes use it for beta on what routes are in an area.
PS, as an older participant that's been in the game a while I don't need technology to show me the major changes I've seen first hand in Australian climbing over time, and for the record, I think the bolting of routes has gotten out of hand to the point where convenience is valued more highly than skill or adventure.
:)

rodw
29-May-2018
12:52:06 PM
No data set is going to give the full picture and you can probably pick and choose what you want to support whatever views you want TBH...anyway its all somatics as the protagonists in this thread are not going to change opinions based on stats, whatever the source.

bigchris
29-May-2018
5:02:31 PM
On 29-May-2018 rodw wrote:
>No data set is going to give the full picture and you can probably pick
>and choose what you want to support whatever views you want TBH...anyway
>its all somatics as the protagonists in this thread are not going to change
>opinions based on stats, whatever the source.


Touche :D

Wether you like/don't like/want/don't want/trad crag/sport crag bolts (Insert your own argument here) etc etc etc people are still going to bolt. People are of course allowed to discuss and argue all they like.
One Day Hero
29-May-2018
7:02:55 PM
On 29-May-2018 bigchris wrote:
>Wether you like/don't like/want/don't want/trad crag/sport crag bolts
>(Insert your own argument here) etc etc etc people are still going to bolt.

I agree, hence I chop bolts. It'd be better to not have to, but until there's some kind of agreement and limits in place, missing climbing days to clean up sport climber mess is better than the other alternative.
widewetandslippery
30-May-2018
1:21:33 PM
On 28-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 28-May-2018 widewetandslippery wrote:
>>Easy bolted climbing on rock is valid. As are families and >sodomy.
>
>Easy bolted climbing up good lines, on good rock, which wouldn't go as
>trad, is valid. Sodomising families is not valid.

Quality is very subjective. The point in hand though is bolting that has been noticed in Victorian National parks, not state forests elsewhere that you get the mine drill lullaby a night. Mr/ms nat park lover dont give two poos about quality routes. I bolt shit easy routes. I don't bolt shit easy routes in national parks or sites of public intrest. Families sodomising is biblical.
rowan
30-May-2018
6:39:00 PM
Climbing is a very young sport and could potentially be around for a long time.

So as a side note. If your going to have some bolting rules. (Is this what this thread is about? It's pretty long now.) How about consideration of bolt quality and replacability. If you could use an expansion bolt that could also be removed so the hole could be reused so we don't have to keep sticking holes in the wall. That would be great. Then your bolting wars would be far less destructive.

Having seen some of the sport routes in the bluies that have had 3 bolt replacements in less than 20 years had me thinking about how much of a mess they already look and wandering how long before the climbs are just a series of patched bolt holes.
Dave_S
31-May-2018
8:17:06 AM
On 30-May-2018 rowan wrote:
> If you could use an expansion bolt that
>could also be removed so the hole could be reused so we don't have to keep
>sticking holes in the wall. That would be great.

Unfortunately even most expansion bolts aren't practically removable. It's really only full-sleeve expansion bolts like DynaBolts that could be removed, and even then it's with some difficulty. And then they have the downside that due to the fact that their threaded part needs to be smaller than the hole diameter in order to leave room for the sleeve, they require a larger hole than other expansion bolts in order to get the same strength.

But yes, bolts places should absolutely be designed to last as long as practical. That means epoxy rather than cheaper adhesives (like Ramset 101) for glue-ins, stainless 316 for all inland bolts, titanium for marine environments, using replaceable lower-off hardware on anchors for popular climbs, and ensuring tightenable bolts don't come loose (in order to avoid damage to bolt threads when someone falls on a loose hanger).

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There are 224 messages in this topic.

 

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