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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 8 of 12. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 225
Author
Fixed gear guidelines in the Grampians
gfdonc
23-May-2018
2:29:02 PM
No, I think the data came from Mikl originally. You might turn it up in a search.
Dave_S
23-May-2018
3:32:34 PM
Not sure if Mikl's done any similar testing, but the VCC commissioned CSIRO to pull-test fixed hangers and hangerless bolts back in 1999. The hangerless bolts all experienced total failure of the bolt plate at 10-12kN in axial (outward) pull, and 16-20kN in radial (downward) pull.

http://vicclimb.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Testing-of-Rock-Anchor-Combinations.zip
Andy P
23-May-2018
7:03:05 PM
Noooooooooooo kieranl and others. Not below the 500m mark, surely?
That's arbitrary and irrelevant anyway IMHO.
So no more bolted 'Sport Cracks' like near the road then. Harrumph.
Grabs coat....
mikllaw
23-May-2018
7:55:13 PM
On 23-May-2018 Dave_S wrote:
>Not sure if Mikl's done any similar testing, but the VCC commissioned CSIRO
>to pull-test fixed hangers and hangerless bolts back in 1999. The hangerless
>bolts all experienced total failure of the bolt plate at 10-12kN in axial
>(outward) pull, and 16-20kN in radial (downward) pull.

Very similar results. Not too concerning unless you're hoping to meet the UIAA spec of 25/25 kN. I think the only issue is the occasional unconnecting of the plate from the bolt with modern small biners.
One Day Hero
23-May-2018
8:03:58 PM
On 23-May-2018 gfdonc wrote:
>>It's 8kN now, is it? How come it never happens?
>
>"When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind. What Do You Do, Sir?"
>(attributed to Paul Samuelson)

So, looks like your "facts" were out by a factor of two. All of the hangers held 10kN in tension (which means you could quite safely put glued carrots straight up into a roof), and 16 frigging kN in shear (the only way they ever get loaded). I assume this means you'll be changing your mind again?
Wendy
24-May-2018
5:51:31 AM
Sorry Tracey, we have digressed again ...

This bloody carrot argument is like those brumbies. People are attached to them due to history/romanticism. We have let them die at most crags around the country, but continue to wax lyrical about them. If they were any good, climbers in other countries would have taken them up. We would have kept using them at all crags. Even the visual argument is kinda nonsense. How ugly is the stainless one hanging a mile out of the orange rock at the start of Archimedes? A homemade u bolt would be no more visible. The thing that makes bolts less visually intrusive is choice of placement and camouflage. Use internationally accepted best practice bolting. Place discreetly and camouflage. What is so wrong with that?
One Day Hero
24-May-2018
9:08:43 AM
On 24-May-2018 Wendy wrote:
>People are attached
>to them due to history/romanticism.

No, I like them because they are low vis and they keep sport pussies away.

>We have let them die at most crags
>around the country, but continue to wax lyrical about >them.

Individual climbers have replaced carrots with rings, this has not been universally accepted. I've gotten rid of some of those rings and will get rid of some more.

>How ugly is the stainless one hanging a mile out of the >orange rock at
>the start of Archimedes?

Should I cherry pick the worst ring bolt I can find then extrapolate that to all rings?

>Use internationally accepted best bolting practice.....

No, I don't want to.
gfdonc
24-May-2018
9:55:04 AM
On 23-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>So, looks like your "facts" were out by a factor of two.

Uh, 8kN, 10kN, not much difference. As per the link above it's happened at least once. That's once too many.
Bolts ought to be placed to meet accepted standards. Carrots don't.
Thanks Wendy for your 2c.

The visual thing was discussed at length in the pub last night. I'll repeat the salient points:
- Once you're 8m up, bolts are hard to spot from ground so it's only other climbers who are going to get uptight about the 'visual impact'. Besides, if visual impact of climbing was really an issue we'd all stop using chalk.
- Have you taken a look around at the other man-made infrastructure in your average park? Sealed roads, paved tracks, picnic shelters, concrete steps, steel guard rails. Bolts have negligible visual impact by comparison.
One Day Hero
24-May-2018
10:41:32 AM
On 24-May-2018 gfdonc wrote:
>Uh, 8kN, 10kN, not much difference.

That's straight out, ya goose! The only load they ever see in that direction is the 0.5kN of some numpty aiding without slings.

>As per the link above it's happened
>at least once. That's once too many.

So what? Rings and fixed hangers have their own failure modes which lead to unclipping. There are plenty of examples of this happening in the field.


>Bolts ought to be placed to meet accepted standards.

25kN outwards is ludicrous overkill. None of the bolts I place will pass. I'd be rather surprised if any friction bolts pass in quartzite or limestone, and a fair chunk of rings in soft rock will fail too.
>
>The visual thing was discussed at length in the pub last night. I'll
>repeat the salient points:
>- Once you're 8m up, bolts are hard to spot from ground so it's only other
>climbers who are going to get uptight about the 'visual impact'.

That would be me. I think the walls in the blueys with a 2.5m grid of shiny rings look f---ing atrocious, and I won't allow it to spread to traddy crags which I like.
Dave_S
24-May-2018
12:19:01 PM
On 24-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>
>That's straight out, ya goose! The only load they ever see in that direction
>is the 0.5kN of some numpty aiding without slings.

Well, except for that Kangaroo Point groundfall that ajfclark linked on the previous page, where a bolt plate rotated into an upside-down position and then failed at what probably wouldn't have been more than perhaps 4kN.

I've also seen them rotate around the bolt and then come off, much to the horror of the leader who was several meters above the bolt at the time (though thin carabiners would have been a factor there), and have personally deformed bolt plates with fall factors as low as 0.3-0.4.

I don't think that they should ever be placed unless there is a very strong need to hide fixed protection from non-climbers, or unless there is already very strong ethic of using them in place at a specific crag. (Buffalo where visible to tourists, and Point Perp belay anchors come to mind as prime examples.)
One Day Hero
24-May-2018
12:30:06 PM
Yeah, I hadn't heard about that one before. Sounds legit, but very unlikely. Trapping a draw upside-down on rings and hangers has also led to many instances of failure, including one in the Grampians which was written up on chocky, and another in germany where a well known nati climber ws belaying, and the climber ended up in a wheelchair.

In short, draws getting trapped off axis and unclipping or breaking is a failure mode common to all bolts.

Dane
24-May-2018
12:43:26 PM
On 24-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>In short, draws getting trapped off axis and unclipping or breaking is
>a failure mode common to all bolts.

Careful ODH,
That path will lead this conversation to steel maillons and permadraws ...

Carrots are more than strong enough for anything we do, and anyone arguing that the echidna of shiny steel bolts is invisible needs to have a word to an optometrist.

The rampant bolting and retro-bolting needs to be slowed somehow, and some form of guidelines are about the only way to make it happen, reinforced with the odd application of an angle grinder.

ajfclark
24-May-2018
1:01:53 PM
On 24-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>Yeah, I hadn't heard about that one before. Sounds legit, but very unlikely.
>Trapping a draw upside-down on rings and hangers has also led to many instances
>of failure, including one in the Grampians which was written up on chocky,
>and another in germany where a well known nati climber ws belaying, and
>the climber ended up in a wheelchair.
>
>In short, draws getting trapped off axis and unclipping or breaking is
>a failure mode common to all bolts.

This one?
One Day Hero
24-May-2018
1:05:17 PM
That's the one. Happened on a u bolt, u bolts are unsafe, every u bolt should be replaced with a carrot.
Dave_S
24-May-2018
1:20:13 PM
Actually, it seems it was a fixed hanger that carabiner snapped on.

https://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtopic.php?t=15594
Wendy
24-May-2018
2:16:10 PM
On 24-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:

>
>That would be me. I think the walls in the blueys with a 2.5m grid of
>shiny rings look f---ing atrocious, and I won't allow it to spread to traddy
>crags which I like.

And would they look any better with a 2.5m grid of carrots? Shiny steel carrots on orange rock are not low viz. It would be a sea of sliver pimples. Which brings us back to my original comment on visibility being about placement and camouflage.

ajfclark
24-May-2018
2:27:12 PM
On 24-May-2018 Dave_S wrote:
>Actually, it seems it was a fixed hanger that carabiner snapped on.
>
>https://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtopic.php?t=15594

No Dave. This was my friend Robyn. From memory on Forever Young on Koalaquatsy Wall.

Here's the thread: http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=5&MessageID=8600&Replies=14
Dave_S
24-May-2018
2:29:22 PM
Two different incidents with the same carabiner failing at the same point? That's a little concerning...

FatBoy
24-May-2018
3:41:40 PM
On 24-May-2018 gfdonc wrote:
>The visual thing was discussed at length in the pub last night. I'll
>repeat the salient points:
>- Once you're 8m up, bolts are hard to spot from ground so it's only other
>climbers who are going to get uptight about the 'visual impact'.
Nahh, 8m is bollocks, shiny hangers or rings are visible for 20-30m. Carrots, sure, 5-10m max.

> Besides, if visual impact of climbing was really an issue we'd all stop using chalk.
That's the #1 reason I hate the Gallery. And don't worry, I'm aware I'm a hyopcrite because I use chalk myself, but I've moved towards the liquid stuff which (once dry) stays more on your hands than loose chalk does. Regardless of levels of hypocrisy, chalk washes off on anything that sees water, so it's hardly the same. (And a line of chalked holds snaking its way up a cliff can be an elegant thing until it ends up as a human guano streak).

>- Have you taken a look around at the other man-made infrastructure in
>your average park? Sealed roads, paved tracks, picnic shelters, concrete
>steps, steel guard rails. Bolts have negligible visual impact by comparison.
We'll have to agree to disagree here: it's all about expectation - if I am on a road or a high traffic access path, I accept that it is a compromised environment. Once you get to the rock, it's au naturale. So for me a line of bolts in a cliff in an otherwise pristine environment does not equate to a line of bolts holding together an information shelter on the side of the road. We strategically give up on some areas in the hope that we can keep some others completely unchanged.

FatBoy
24-May-2018
3:47:06 PM
On 24-May-2018 Wendy wrote:
>And would they look any better with a 2.5m grid of carrots? Shiny steel
>carrots on orange rock are not low viz. It would be a sea of sliver pimples.
>Which brings us back to my original comment on visibility being about placement
>and camouflage.

C'mon Wendy, I know you're prosecuting a line of argument here, but that's demonstrably rubbish. We have eyes: carrots are 1/3 the visual intrusion of hangars / rings and are very rarely shiny - countless times while on route I've had to look for the carrot listed in the guide .. everybody who's climbed at Araps has.

But I don't know that we want a 2.5m grid of anything do we ?

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