Goto Chockstone Home

  Guide
  Gallery
  Tech Tips
  Articles
  Reviews
  Dictionary
  Links
  Forum
  Search
  About

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

  Shop
Chockstone Photography
Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
Australian Landscape Prints





Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 12. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 224
Author
Fixed gear guidelines in the Grampians
kieranl
11-May-2018
3:19:11 PM
Recent discussions on another thread related to a bolt placement at Bundaleer have resulted in proposals to variously ban or strip all fixed gear at Rosea. One of the problems with the proposal, and to my mind, the biggest is that these proposals are ad hoc and aren't underpinned by a set of principle that we can apply throughout the Grampians.

It is Rosea and we love it. But we love lots of cliffs and why are we adopting one position for Rosea but not for other areas? Short of Parks clamping done in a regulatory sense, any restrictions we impose as climbers are a choice. If we don't understand why we are making a particular choice for a particular area then it is more likely that the choice will not be acceptable.

I think we need a broader discussion than this and the discussion needs to be among a much wider audience than a baker's handful of keyboard warriors on Chockstone.

Here's a little proposal : That there be a voluntary moratorium on placement of all fixed gear above the 500m contour in Grampians National Park for 12 months from 1st July 2018.

During that 12 month period, discussions will happen about the future of fixed gear throughout the Grampians.

Why 500m? I think it covers the majority of the remote areas in the Grampians. But, open to suggestions on another measure.

Why don't start until 1st July? To give some time to make people aware and to discuss whether things like the 500m limit should change? Anyone who agrees with the proposal, such as me, will observe the moratorium from now.

Why a voluntary moratorium? There is no surer way to derail discussion than to tell people that here's the situation and they must comply or there will be retaliation.

Maybe I'm completely on the wrong track, which wouldn't be the first time.
kieranl
11-May-2018
3:19:39 PM
What sort of guidelines might we consider? Here are a few off the top of my head:

- No climbing/bouldering. Obviously applies to no pblic accees areas but also to indigenous cultural sites

- No fixed equipment. No fixed climbing equipment at all including abseil slings. Any fixed equipment will be removed. Parties leaving retreat anchors are responsible for returning and removing this gear.

- No hammered/glued protection. Existing pitons/bolts will be removed

- No new hammered/glued protection. Replacement of unsafe fixed protection (one-for-one or one-for-many) permitted.

- No sport routes. Maximum 2 pieces hammered glued protection/30 metres. Limited abseil anchors for erosion protection.

- Predominately trad. Hand-drilling only?

- Predominately trad ethic. Isolated sport routes tolerated

- No special guidelines

Feel free to tear this list to shreds and reassemble as something better.
kieranl
11-May-2018
3:20:02 PM
The big question is how to decide which guidelines apply to which area or cliff or even parts of a cliff. Here are a few possibilities?

- Is the cliff within a remote/wilderness/reference area of the park?

- Are there specifc environmental concerns?

- Are there indigenous cultural concerns?

- Is there public visual impact?

- Do other park user-groups have a special interest?

- Does the area have a current predominant ethic?

- Is there significant climbing history associated with this cliff?

Again, take these and toss them around and put something back together.
kieranl
11-May-2018
3:25:17 PM
On 11-May-2018 Access T CliffCare wrote (on another thread):
>
>In more recent times the opinion of quite a few in PV (especially in the
>parks we climb) is that the amount of metal going into cliffs, both newly
>developed and old, seems to be relentless and that in fact, there is little
>self regulation going on. And that this canít continue. Another concern
>coupled with this is what is seen as, for lack of better words, Ďunsustainable
>boltingí. As in, the kind of bolts used often donít allow for easy removal
>when they need to be replaced. Or lack of experience in removing them.
>Or hack jobs.
>
>I understand that these comments are probably what you would expect from
>a land manager so maybe no surprise. And within those comments, you can
>allow for a lack of a complete understanding of climbing, putting up routes
>and all the vagaries that go with it. But they are coming up more and the
>amount of climbers heading to the parks is growing. And a huge amount of
>these climb predominantly sport. Kind of goes hand in hand I suppose.
>I also know these comments are often echoed by climbers themselves. I do
>believe that there is some self regulation going on, but letís face it
>-itís still a very subjective view though. And that tends to get watered
>down as more and more people climb. Finite rock - infinite climbers. Older
>developers still developing and newer ones wanting to. I know this is a
>complex conversation and no easy solution. There are definitely avenues
>that can be investigated though, that arenít just about dealing with metal
>after the fact.
>
>Anyway, something else to add into the thought process seeing as it as
>taken off into a bigger picture tangent.
>
>Cheers
>

FatBoy
11-May-2018
11:27:39 PM
1st July 2018 I think you might be suggesting ? Regardless, thanks for posting the new thread.

I definitely support your 500m+ moratorium - which won't be a surprise to anyone following the Blimp / Rosea thread.

Perhaps someone could list the affected crags ? I have no contour map of the area but know that the summit of Rosea is 1,000m so well and truly in this list.

While I personally feel that every route that actually gets done at Rosea can be done safely enough without any fixed protection, I'm happy to compromise to this point if it achieves the major goal of stopping the trend.

The question was answered best for me by Tracey / Cliffcare / VCC whose observations (of the Parks Vic view of us) agreed with my own observations: self regulation isn't working in its current form. Let's try this instead.
uwhp510
12-May-2018
2:01:11 AM
On 11-May-2018 kieranl wrote:

>It is Rosea and we love it. But we love lots of cliffs and why are we
>adopting one position for Rosea but not for other areas?

Because variety is the spice of life?

Duang Daunk
12-May-2018
2:09:17 AM
Self regulation isnít working?

Those doing the bolting probably donít know that this is supposed to happen as far as pv is concerned, nor do they care anyway because other climbers that may be concerned for the most part only bleat about their open slather approach after the event, and so far pv hasnít made an example of any offender.

Most other climbers are complicit by either their silence or approval, so then the bolters continue to be emboldened due not having any real negative reaction to their actions.

A twelve month ban of new bolting above 500 metres while the issue is discussed?
What a joke!
Do you seriously reckon that the majority of those doing the bolting will care about that?
Until there is real consequence for their action they will continue. Unfortunately the silent or apathetic majority will suffer the consequence if ever the dinosaur of authority awakens from slumber.

Even if an agreement is reached after such moratorium and discussions, bolters are still going to bolt.

ODH has put forward the only real solution over on the other thread. I will call it his vp solution as it will only take one vindictive pr-, err person to chop not only the offending bolts but also others placed by the offender to set an example of real consequence that canít be ignored, otherwise we are just bleating and will continue to be raped by those with velcro gloves and a why-not attitude.

FatBoy
12-May-2018
6:53:35 AM
I agree with your concerns about the sleeping dinosaur.

But I think chopping anything placed in this time is part of the suggestion. A clearly defined local ethic on thecrag.com would go a long way towards helping it.

And explicit agreement from the VCC in terms of policy would also be required. Put those two pieces together and at least you have a fair stance to do the aforementioned chopping.
GoUp!
12-May-2018
7:26:43 AM
Good proposal kieranl!
kieranl
12-May-2018
7:42:02 AM
On 11-May-2018 FatBoy wrote:
>1st July 2018 I think you might be suggesting ? Regardless, thanks for
>posting the new thread.
>

Thanks, fixed.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
12-May-2018
7:49:29 AM
On 12-May-2018 kieranl wrote:
>On 11-May-2018 FatBoy wrote:
>>1st July 2018 I think you might be suggesting ? Regardless, thanks for posting the new thread.
>
>Thanks, fixed.

Grammar nazis might find other stuff in there, but I also thank you for taking the time to start a constructive process.
... but why stop at the Grampians?

The issues raised affect other locations like Mt Buffalo too!
We are ultimately dealing with PV who has jurisdiction over them all, and are likely to want a blanket solution?

Given the recent tip of a similar iceburg with slackline setups (in another State), it is timely to have a review and arrive at a consensus, as it appears the slow train coming is approaching the station...
kieranl
12-May-2018
7:55:23 AM
On 12-May-2018 FatBoy wrote:

>
>But I think chopping anything placed in this time is part of the suggestion.
>A clearly defined local ethic on thecrag.com would go a long way towards
>helping it.
>
>And explicit agreement from the VCC in terms of policy would also be required.
>Put those two pieces together and at least you have a fair stance to do
>the aforementioned chopping.

Actually chopping stuff placed during the moratorium period is explicitly off the table in my proposal. Threats of retribution create confrontation, get hackles up, destroy dialogue. To get anywhere with this requires goodwill. Maybe shockingly idealistic but I don't think it has any chance of working otherwise.

This discussion also has to go way beyond this forum. I'll maybe put a tiny bit more flesh on tese bones and submit to Argus and Vertical Life to get to a broader audience. Also I have no illusions that I can drive this process. I'm happy to be heavily involved but I'm not a great networker.
One Day Hero
12-May-2018
9:40:38 AM
On 11-May-2018 kieranl wrote:
>Why 500m? I think it covers the majority of the remote areas in the Grampians.
>But, open to suggestions on another measure.
>
I was wondering the same thing. Where did this arbitrary altitude come from? Then I went into the nati cafe and started browsing the collection of argus mags up on the wall. Wouldn't you know it, most of the new routes at araps in the last year have kieranl, a couple of bolts, and a loweroff in the description.......and araps is lower than 500m. What a tremendous coincidence!

Goshen
12-May-2018
11:22:06 AM
>Perhaps someone could list the affected crags ? I have no contour map
>of the area but know that the summit of Rosea is 1,000m so well and truly
>in this list.

I thought the same thing (namely that those bolting are not going to be consulting topographical maps when searching for areas to climb; but google maps as it turns out shows contour lines if you select 'Terrain' on the menu.

500m is a reasonable arbitrary but not sure the fundamental idea is workable. There are obviously many crags that are well below that which should remain mixed, and not turned into clip-ups.... There are also crags above this where climbs are being done that require bolts, and I'd be loath not to do them.

To what I have observed; the majority of areas each develop an 'ethic' based on the main set of people who developed it in the first place (with, perhaps the exception of Dreamtime).

EG
- Clean Cut is a sport cliff, with sport climbs
- The Lost world is mixed.
- Tiapan is mixed.
- Rosea is pretty much trad, and likely to remain so.
- Van Demon's is Sport...
- Summerday is Trad...
yadda yadda.

If someone develops an area totally new, it appears to me that they (to a large extent) get to dictate the style that the cliff is developed in.

If there is a cliff with an ESTABLISHED style, where climbers choose to put up climbs that vary from that style; they are liable to get their bolts chopped.

The real issue is seems is indeed the 'slippery slope' effect, but it effects different crags very differently; and a blanket approach to bolting or not bolting will never work in a place as diverse as the Gramps. With a few exceptions, a lot of the new development and re-bolting that I've seen is actually very sensible.













JamesMc
12-May-2018
12:14:41 PM
If there's to be "No Bolt" areas in The Grampians, better to put them where there's no decent climbing. Say Serra Range between Teddy Bear Gap and Cassidy Gap or Mt William Ra south of Boundary Gap.
TimP
12-May-2018
3:02:12 PM
Is it the whole mindset of FA / new route as pinnacle of climbing that is at the core of rampant bolting? Having your clever route name immortalised?

I can't imagine running out of challenges with the existing climbs. Perhaps you could have permission to bolt after you've climbed everything!

If you want to do something obscure, top-rope it and get your fame on the Instagram.

Top-roping is well underrated I reckon ó if you're just after the physical climbing sensation / challenge without mucking around with gear, or fear.
Wendy
Online Now
12-May-2018
3:58:52 PM
On 12-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 11-May-2018 kieranl wrote:
>>Why 500m? I think it covers the majority of the remote areas in the Grampians.
>>But, open to suggestions on another measure.
>>
>I was wondering the same thing. Where did this arbitrary altitude come
>from? Then I went into the nati cafe and started browsing the collection
>of argus mags up on the wall. Wouldn't you know it, most of the new routes
>at araps in the last year have kieranl, a couple of bolts, and a loweroff
>in the description.......and araps is lower than 500m. What a tremendous
>coincidence!

I think you might be getting a false impression from using Argus. Have a look at thecrag. I would suggest that Glenn, Geoff, Maureen, Adam, Gareth and myself might be well represented. Geordie would if he actually got back to his too. While we are making random deliniations, maybe we need to ban anyone whose name starts with G. That would even get rid of Douglas, whose real name is actually Garth. There, now the only remaining potential offenders are me, adam, Keiran and maureen. Seeing maureen and I are currently out of action, this rule will reduce new bolts at araps to Adam and Keiran's, or by approximately 78% less.

I should infact include Gordy in that list, but he's just going to do whatever random thing he wants anyway.
Wendy
Online Now
12-May-2018
4:17:51 PM
Now I will try and be serious.

Thanks Keiran for attempting to initiate reasonable discussion and for pointing out that tit for tat bolting/chopping is a childish non solution.

Rather than per crag rules, or indeed rules full stop, I would suggest developing guiding principles that can then be applied to any decision about new routes at any crag. We can't really expect to ever label every crag. Random rules also don't teach anybody judgement that can then be applied elsewhere (Moonarie, Buffalo, Frog, remote bits of obscurity anywhere). I'll attempt to put some ideas together whilst sling-bound.

Regarding the moratorium - i think it difficult to come up with partial moratoriums. The 500m excludes a bunch of sport and mixed crags in the vic range that are established and accepted, whilst allowing it to continue in other areas that have been controversial (like The Ravine).

Do we need a moratorium? Or do we need to stop waffling on chockstone and start engaging the broader community and get some guidelines out there?

As to those poor apathetic and silent majority that Stugand thinks are missing out. Well, that is the price of being apathetic and silent.
One Day Hero
12-May-2018
9:45:10 PM
On 12-May-2018 Wendy wrote:
>Thanks Keiran for attempting to initiate reasonable discussion and for
>pointing out that tit for tat bolting/chopping is a childish non solution.

Nobody does tit for tat bolting, they just bolt. What you're saying is that nobody should chop bolts.......which means the bolters will just do as they please. Surprisingly, chopping bolts seems to be very effective, with no rebolts of recently chopped routes (that I know about). I'm also going to be extremely mature and not make the joke about australian climbing needing less tats and....

>Do we need a moratorium? Or do we need to stop waffling on chockstone
>and start engaging the broader community and get some guidelines out there?

I have a much simpler and more workable solution than Kieran's (and it doesn't require an altimeter). Just dial before you drill. Call the traddiest person you know and tell them exactly what you have planned, then (this is the tricky bit) listen to what they say. The beauty of this idea is that if you're nervous about calling Malcolm or Lou or whoever and describing the vegetated piece of choss you want to grid, then you probably already know that you shouldn't be doing it.
Wendy
Online Now
13-May-2018
5:06:36 AM
On 12-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 12-May-2018 Wendy wrote:
>>Thanks Keiran for attempting to initiate reasonable discussion and for
>>pointing out that tit for tat bolting/chopping is a childish non solution.
>
>Nobody does tit for tat bolting, they just bolt. What you're saying is
>that nobody should chop bolts.......which means the bolters will just do
>as they please. Surprisingly, chopping bolts seems to be very effective,
>with no rebolts of recently chopped routes (that I know about). I'm also
>going to be extremely mature and not make the joke about australian climbing
>needing less tats and....

Since when were you mature? Think of the Gordy sagas for some great tit for tat examples. You're also assuming that no one has ever thought about bolting something then not bolted it. Strangely enough, that happens. I'm trying to encourage the thinking beforehand side of the picture.
>
>>Do we need a moratorium? Or do we need to stop waffling on chockstone
>>and start engaging the broader community and get some guidelines out
>there?
>
>I have a much simpler and more workable solution than Kieran's (and it
>doesn't require an altimeter). Just dial before you drill. Call the traddiest
>person you know and tell them exactly what you have planned, then (this
>is the tricky bit) listen to what they say. The beauty of this idea is
>that if you're nervous about calling Malcolm or Lou or whoever and describing
>the vegetated piece of choss you want to grid, then you probably already
>know that you shouldn't be doing it.

You might be surprised what lou wants to bolt. i'd say lou's position is generally pretty similar to mine. Or you might say that we both just think about it with open minds.

Malcolm is a slightly unpredictable fish on the matter. He's very attached to some old school mixed routes of his, but has also bolted squeeze jobs at araps.

however, dial before you drill is a pretty good concept! But maybe, dial a few people of different backgrounds with a knowledge of the area to scope out a range of opinions.
>

 Page 1 of 12. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 224
There are 224 messages in this topic.

 

Home | Guide | Gallery | Tech Tips | Articles | Reviews | Dictionary | Forum | Links | About | Search
Chockstone Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography | Landscape Photos Australia

Please read the full disclaimer before using any information contained on these pages.



Australian Panoramic | Australian Coast | Australian Mountains | Australian Countryside | Australian Waterfalls | Australian Lakes | Australian Cities | Australian Macro | Australian Wildlife
Landscape Photo | Landscape Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Fine Art Photography | Wilderness Photography | Nature Photo | Australian Landscape Photo | Stock Photography Australia | Landscape Photos | Panoramic Photos | Panoramic Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography | High Country Mountain Huts | Mothers Day Gifts | Gifts for Mothers Day | Mothers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Mothers Day | Wedding Gift Ideas | Christmas Gift Ideas | Fathers Day Gifts | Gifts for Fathers Day | Fathers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Fathers Day | Landscape Prints | Landscape Poster | Limited Edition Prints | Panoramic Photo | Buy Posters | Poster Prints