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New bolt on Blimp - Bundaleer


Duang Daunk

10-May-2018
6:21:28 PM

On 10-May-2018 Wendy wrote:
>
>token sportish routes. They exist. They have existed for a long time. Suddenly
>coming along 30 odd years later and saying we'll make a bolt free crag
>seems kinda silly. Iv had endless arguements about slippery slopes before,
>but strangely enough, Rosea has not turned into dreamtime wall (which might
>actually have been a bolt free crag when joe rediscovered it) in the 30
>maybe 40 years since the first bolts went in it.
>
Thank you sister Wendy for making the point using Dreamtime Wall example, for having a moratorium on any new bolts at Rosea, as this is exactly what many who have an eye on the future don't want to happen there.

On 9-May-2018 kieranl wrote:
>You don't need to ban bolts to preserve a cliff in cobwebs - just a lack of imagination.

kieranl bro, I think you missed the point when you made that statement.
We may not be around to see it happen, but I imagine there will come a day when not climbing like Alex Honnold does (now), will be the exception to the norm of our pastime, and having some place great to test ourselves against will be needed.
Yes I know, you put up this route and that one too at Rosea, but they will be considered the introductory warmups of the future, that the bumblies will learn the Honnold style of climbing on!
... Kinda like when hot Henry Barber woke up Aussie climbing to the future possibilities yeah?

One Day Hero

10-May-2018
6:32:38 PM

On 8-May-2018 dan_b wrote:
>I’d also like ODHs opinion.

I can't imagine what sort of selfish fuchwad would go and place a bolt on a 50yr old trad classic without bothering to do any community consultation first. Fuch these people. Find out who it was and chop every bolt they ever placed.

One Day Hero

10-May-2018
6:47:42 PM

Regarding the Rosea thing, I find myself in an odd state of being able to see everybody's point of view. I hate the idea that the only two options are no bolts or bolts everywhere. Why do the fanatics get to have it their way?

On the other hand, it seems silly that Kieran wants to replace old fixed gear on obscure crap while the crag classics are crying out for a prune and brush.

Neil makes a pretty good case, but should back it up by actually chopping some of the offensive bolts.

jacksonclimbs

10-May-2018
7:21:23 PM

On 10-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 8-May-2018 dan_b wrote:
>>I’d also like ODHs opinion.
>
>I can't imagine what sort of *Moderator removed* fuchwad would go and place a bolt

Come on dude, you need to drop terms for disability from your vocab of insults.


Nmonteith

10-May-2018
7:27:40 PM

I pulled a bunch of bolts out of the bizzare all bolt multipitch on the left side of the crag about 13 years ago. It was very easy when they hadn't been glued in yet!

dalai

10-May-2018
7:47:14 PM

On 10-May-2018 jacksonclimbs wrote:

>Come on dude, you need to drop terms for disability from your vocab of
>insults.

Agreed. ODH please edit your comment or I will.

[Another Moderator edit: If you do Dalai - plus advertise the fact you had to.]

Post edit: Thank you ODH for editing your comment.

The Rock Robster

10-May-2018
8:57:05 PM

On 10-May-2018 One Day Hero wrote:
>Regarding the Rosea thing, I find myself in an odd state of being able
>to see everybody's point of view. I hate the idea that the only two options
>are no bolts or bolts everywhere. Why do the fanatics get to have it their
>way?

This ^^^^^
I'd quote Goshen as well if I wasn't so lazy.

Wendy

11-May-2018
5:40:22 AM

On 10-May-2018 Nmonteith wrote:
>I pulled a bunch of bolts out of the bizzare all bolt multipitch on the
>left side of the crag about 13 years ago. It was very easy when they hadn't
>been glued in yet!

This sounds like it was probably a reasonable action! I just don't get why people seem to think peopl can only ever go bolt mad or have none. People moderate their behaviour every day in all sorts of ways. I see chocolate in the supermarket. I buy one block, not the whole shelf. Why don't we teach people to reflect on their decisions rather than blanket rules which don't teach anyone anything? Especially in this case as it is a random post hoc rule that doesn't even reflect the state of the crag.

No one has yet grid bolted rosea. if the occasional mixed route or anchor goes up for in an unobstrusive, safe style, that seems entirely in keeping with the crag to me and we can all continue to be adults about discussing where we should draw the line if something controversial happens. setting an extreme position incongruent with the current state of the crag almost seems more likely to antagonise someone into going bolting. The system is working. It doesn't need fixing. How can we expect pv to trust climbers to self regulate if climbers don't trust climbers to self regulate?

Wendy

11-May-2018
5:45:28 AM

On 10-May-2018 Duang Daunk wrote:
>On 10-May-2018 Wendy wrote:
>>
>>token sportish routes. They exist. They have existed for a long time.
>Suddenly
>>coming along 30 odd years later and saying we'll make a bolt free crag
>>seems kinda silly. Iv had endless arguements about slippery slopes before,
>>but strangely enough, Rosea has not turned into dreamtime wall (which
>might
>>actually have been a bolt free crag when joe rediscovered it) in the
>30
>>maybe 40 years since the first bolts went in it.
>>
>Thank you sister Wendy for making the point using Dreamtime Wall example,
>for having a moratorium on any new bolts at Rosea, as this is exactly what
>many who have an eye on the future don't want to happen there.
>
>

I have a lot more issues with dreamtime wall than I have with say, Kieran fixing up some anchors and putting a mixed route in at rosea. I however seem to be alone in my concerns about dreamtime wall and certainly, no one was out there d bating the merits of developing it that way at the time. However, as people are more concerned about rosea, I would expect a more proactive approach should anything be started. Promote guidelines and boundaries. These are things that people can then apply to route development at any crag, rather than just following blanket rules.

>
>On 9-May-2018 kieranl wrote:
>>You don't need to ban bolts to preserve a cliff in cobwebs - just a lack
>of imagination.
>
>kieranl bro, I think you missed the point when you made that statement.
>We may not be around to see it happen, but I imagine there will come a
>day when not climbing like Alex Honnold does (now), will be the exception
>to the norm of our pastime, and having some place great to test ourselves
>against will be needed.
>Yes I know, you put up this route and that one too at Rosea, but they
>will be considered the introductory warmups of the future, that the bumblies
>will learn the Honnold style of climbing on!
>... Kinda like when hot Henry Barber woke up Aussie climbing to the future
>possibilities yeah?

Wendy

11-May-2018
5:52:50 AM

and back to the original bolt discussion- if it's an expansion, it'll come out easily and cleanly and I'd do it myself if I actually had two functioning arms and if it wasn't way too bloody cold to go near bundaleer. But it would probably be useful to find out who did it and talk with them about our concerns with it first.

(removed)

11-May-2018
6:16:54 AM

(removed)

11-May-2018
6:24:58 AM

On 10-May-2018 Wendy wrote:
>Can we please not have another slippery slope argument about it?

To be clear: "slippery slope" is only a logical argument fallacy if there's no evidence to suggest that the subsequent step could happen. Not the case here. Dreamtime has shown us that Trad adventure cliffs can turn.

Hence the moratorium suggestion - which I thought was a healthy middle ground even if I personally see a greater opportunity for the cliff.


Goshen

11-May-2018
8:05:40 AM

On 10-May-2018 Wendy wrote:
>Oh god, the rosea debate again. Really, it has never been a bolt free crag.
>There have been bolts and anchors on it as long as I have been climbing.
>Above Debutante DS. The routes immediately right of it. At base of Scarface.
>If there aren't any to replace the old rap trees on RIP corner and Knick
>Kanck, there should be. Coronary Country and a few other things down there.
>Can people please stop deluding themselves? That is not even touching the
>pitons. Or tat. Or fixed wires. Or slings on trees. Fixed gear has existed
>since time immemorial at Rosea. Despite that, it has not been grid bolted.
>Can we please not have another slippery slope argument about it?
>
>Back on topic, my general assessment of if something has enough gear is,
>would I lead it? Being the world's biggest wuss who bursts into tears above
>gear on grade 15 slabs, it's a fairly reliable measure. I have lead Blimp
>a lot. I have never clipped either the old piton or the old bolt. There
>is plenty of gear. I am all for replacing old fixed gear with modern gear
>when it is necessary, but this one is not necessary.
>
>Using the same standard on Kingdom Come, I have led it a lot, and there
>are good small wires around the piton as well. Simey would be proud of
>me, I carry my microwires up an off width. The start, on the other hand,
>has no gear, is desperate, and i never do it without placing large wire
>with a stick. If I was to feel a need to retro KC, it'd be at the start.
>Rip the piton all you like, it doesn't need replacing. Mention microwires
>in the description if you want.

Thanks Wendy... I wasn't sure about Kingdome Come; but agree strongly on all 3 points.

One Day Hero

11-May-2018
8:10:43 AM

On 11-May-2018 Wendy wrote:
>The system
>is working. It doesn't need fixing. How can we expect pv to trust climbers
>to self regulate if climbers don't trust climbers to self regulate?

The system is not working. Stupid bolted squeeze routes and retro loweroffs are going in everywhere at araps. Nati climbers seem utterly incapable of self regulating. I'll try to come back for a chopping trip soon.


nmonteith

11-May-2018
8:19:51 AM

On 11-May-2018 Wendy wrote:
>No one has yet grid bolted rosea.

Well actually they did a decade ago (the mystery all bolt multi-pitch on the left side of the cliff). There were many many bolts on terrain that was onsightable with trad. It was actually the mega bush fires & floods that put a stop to any further major development - not the restrain of climbers IMHO. And isn't there actually a totally bolted sport crag on the far right end of Rosea these days? Well that's the rumors anyway - alluded to early on in this discussion...

"Leaving aside the far right end which is virtually a separate sport crag" - JamesMc

Access T CliffCare

11-May-2018
10:49:23 AM

Great conversation and good to see that it hasn’t sunk to a personal slanging match :-) (as yet). I’m not going to comment much on the specifics of the original posting but would just like to add some food for thought after following this thread. I think these conversations should, and will be happening a bit more in the future. And maybe a separate conversation to be started on this site could be good?A couple of things:

In more recent times the opinion of quite a few in PV (especially in the parks we climb) is that the amount of metal going into cliffs, both newly developed and old, seems to be relentless and that in fact, there is little self regulation going on. And that this can’t continue. Another concern coupled with this is what is seen as, for lack of better words, ‘unsustainable bolting’. As in, the kind of bolts used often don’t allow for easy removal when they need to be replaced. Or lack of experience in removing them. Or hack jobs.

I understand that these comments are probably what you would expect from a land manager so maybe no surprise. And within those comments, you can allow for a lack of a complete understanding of climbing, putting up routes and all the vagaries that go with it. But they are coming up more and the amount of climbers heading to the parks is growing. And a huge amount of these climb predominantly sport. Kind of goes hand in hand I suppose. I also know these comments are often echoed by climbers themselves. I do believe that there is some self regulation going on, but let’s face it -it’s still a very subjective view though. And that tends to get watered down as more and more people climb. Finite rock - infinite climbers. Older developers still developing and newer ones wanting to. I know this is a complex conversation and no easy solution. There are definitely avenues that can be investigated though, that aren’t just about dealing with metal after the fact.

Anyway, something else to add into the thought process seeing as it as taken off into a bigger picture tangent.

Cheers

f_abe

11-May-2018
12:43:44 PM

Because I’m a maths teacher and thus I like counting things a quick count on thecrag.com shows about 546 bolts at Dreamtime, 129 (approx. – I had to guess a few routes) at Bundaleer (not counting THE bolt in question), and but a handful at Rosea. And just because I found it hard to stop counting, Black Ians now has 118.
This doesn’t include anchors.
Not sure what my point is, but that’s half the point of posting on here isn’t it?

jayford4321

11-May-2018
1:00:26 PM

Wendy

11-May-2018
1:50:01 PM

On 11-May-2018 f_abe wrote:
>Because I’m a maths teacher and thus I like counting things a quick count
>on thecrag.com shows about 546 bolts at Dreamtime, 129 (approx. – I had
>to guess a few routes) at Bundaleer (not counting THE bolt in question),
>and but a handful at Rosea. And just because I found it hard to stop counting,
>Black Ians now has 118.
>This doesn’t include anchors.
>Not sure what my point is, but that’s half the point of posting on here
>isn’t it?

Can you be a little more specific about that handful? Because what I call a handful exists merely around debutante ds

Damo, the culprits for the large scale bolting at dreamtime and black Ian's are not natimuk climbers! And I have told both my concerns about that development. I also talk with local people when I think they might be a little in excess. Perhaps if people did more talking like adults and less spitting the dummy and starting bolting wars, we could reach some better self regulation? Reactive responses lead to reactive responses yadda yadda. Talk with people about the concerns with bolting instead. I really don't have a problem with Kieren fixing up some old routes of his at rosea. saying he can't do that because some other person might come and do something with less thought and skill seems kinda silly. Teach the other people to develop judgement and skill instead. Because otherwise, they are going to regardless of a chockstone based moratorium or they'll just do it somewhere else.
>

dalai

11-May-2018
3:20:29 PM

On 11-May-2018 Wendy wrote:

>Damo, the culprits for the large scale bolting at dreamtime and black
>Ian's are not natimuk climbers!

Nicely ignoring his reference to Arapiles... Which is well stuffed up with worthless squeeze jobs - developed mostly by Nati locals who are treating the cliff as their personal climbing gym!

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