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Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 3 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 88
Author
New bolt on Blimp - Bundaleer

FatBoy
9-May-2018
11:23:11 AM
On 9-May-2018 dalai wrote:
>Sounds like a moratorium on new bolts at Rosea would be a great start?
>
>
>From today 9/05/2018 any new bolts placed at Rosea from today will be
>removed.
I like this a lot - would require an explicit ethic entry in thecrag though to be fair on people who come along afterwards without having been a party to these discussions
kieranl
9-May-2018
11:55:10 AM
On 9-May-2018 FatBoy wrote:
>On 9-May-2018 dalai wrote:
>>Sounds like a moratorium on new bolts at Rosea would be a great start?
>>
>>
>>From today 9/05/2018 any new bolts placed at Rosea from today will be
>>removed.
>I like this a lot - would require an explicit ethic entry in thecrag though
>to be fair on people who come along afterwards without having been a party
>to these discussions

This is absurd. A couple of people on an internet forum decide this? And people can't even get some basic facts straight. Neil can count the number of bolts 20 years ago other than abseil anchors on the fingers of one hand? All I can say is that he must have a lot more fingers on his hands than I have. Fixed gear, including bolts, has been part of Rosea climbing since it's inception.

People have generally been sparing with bolts at Rosea and it is hoped that this continues (disclaimer: I have placed 4 bolts at Rosea in the 42 years since I started climbing there). There was an aberration down the lefthand end of the cliff associated with an outdoor adventure group, hopefully never to be repeated

I still have a project or two in mind at Rosea and if they need bolts and they don't intrude on other climbs then I will place them.


FatBoy
9-May-2018
12:14:24 PM
On 9-May-2018 kieranl wrote:
>This is absurd.
Not really. It's more than a couple of people, and it's more than just an internet forum. It is by far the most representative collection of climbers in Victoria.

>I still have a project or two in mind at Rosea and if they need bolts
>and they don't intrude on other climbs then I will place them.
If everyone applies that logic, then god help us. I have hundreds of bolts spare and a pretty decent drill, so I could just grid bolt 10 projects up the blanker faces - it's vertical enough that there are tons of lines that will go. Put a tag on them, reserve 'em. And better climbers than I could bolt another 20 or so. We will end up with 300 bolts there with your logic. That place is awesome and every bit of steel that goes in detracts a tiny, tiny bit. They add up.

F*&^ it, let's grid bolt every unclimbed line.

Note: It's only "absurd" because you disagree (and because you want to put up some new routes there and have your name live on forever ...)
dalai
9-May-2018
12:37:38 PM
There is a huge amount of rock elsewhere in the park where you could sink that steel Kieran.

Why not look at setting aside ONE cliff to be bolt free? Especially as Rosea in particular is well suited for this ethic to be encouraged! Sure bolts existed here from the beginning - as aid bolts. Why not given the huge improvements of trad gear since the 60's seek to utilizing this here?

Note as you know I am not anti bolts and have sunk many over the years around the state, but feel this could be the greatest legacy we could leave the future generations of climbers. Far better than squeezing in a few more lines!
kieranl
9-May-2018
1:10:21 PM
On 9-May-2018 dalai wrote:
>There is a huge amount of rock elsewhere in the park where you could sink
>that steel Kieran.
>
>Why not look at setting aside ONE cliff to be bolt free? Especially as
>Rosea in particular is well suited for this ethic to be encouraged! Sure
>bolts existed here from the beginning - as aid bolts. Why not given the
>huge improvements of trad gear since the 60's seek to utilizing this here?
>
>Note as you know I am not anti bolts and have sunk many over the years
>around the state, but feel this could be the greatest legacy we could leave
>the future generations of climbers. Far better than squeezing in a few
>more lines!

I don't have an objection in principle but I find the "process" to be absurd. Three people with a few glib posts in an unrelated internet thread isn't what I would call an open consultation process.

Why do I want to place bolts at Rosea? First, I need to fix to up the shoddy bolting job that I did on "It'll End In Tears" many years ago. Two bolts and a peg need replacing. Does the committee approve?

Then the old aid bolts that are used for protection on "One Night Stand" and "Barleycorn" need to be rationalised. The ancient piton on "Tourist Direct" should be replaced with a bolt. Doesn't get done often these days but you are 10 metres out by the time you reach this 55+ year old mild steel pin and the crux follows before you can get a good piece. There are heaps of others, but not on climbs that I have been involved in.

And then there are a couple of projects which might or might not need one or two bolts.

It's all a question of getting my body in order and getting up there with the gear. I can't carry heavy packs any more so it takes me a few trips to ferry gear.

Why at Rosea? Because I love the place.



FatBoy
9-May-2018
1:40:07 PM
They're not glib posts - I'm quite sincere. As dalai said, I think it would be an amazing legacy to leave this cliff as Victoria's Ben Lomond.

In specific response to your points:

  • No point fixing up It'll end in tears - it gets no ascents
  • Pull the pin on Tourist Direct and you might find there's a brand new micro cam slot
  • One Night Stand is a good example of a route that doesn't need to exist - again no-one does it, and why would you, it's 13, boulder-y inconsistent 23, then 14
  • John Barleycorn might just end up as a route which is a bit more serious - and that's okay so long as people know this the case before they rock up


I fundamentally object to the suggestion that we all have a right to bolt unclimbed rock - which you have assumed. How does that right supersede my right for a cliff I love to not be desecrated by hundreds of bolts ?

Your desire for people to adhere to the general historic ethic of Rosea (minimal bolts) is incredibly wishful thinking - you're not the only one with a drill. I personally feel that unless you place a moratorium, this place is going to end up with 10 times the steel in it that is there now. You're certainly not the only one who loves that place.


bigchris
9-May-2018
1:53:09 PM

>And then there are a couple of projects which might or might not need
>one or two bolts.
>
>It's all a question of getting my body in order and getting up there with
>the gear. I can't carry heavy packs any more so it takes me a few trips
>to ferry gear.
>
>Why at Rosea? Because I love the place.

I'll come with you - i've never been there and i'll carry the stuff.
kieranl
9-May-2018
2:41:05 PM
On 9-May-2018 FatBoy wrote:
>They're not glib posts - I'm quite sincere. As dalai said, I think it
>would be an amazing legacy to leave this cliff as Victoria's Ben Lomond.

This was kicked off by Neil's gib comment that there are less than a handful of bolts. Noone seems to want to address that issue. To me it suggests that people have a distorted view of the place. What strikes me is the generally limited number of routes that people climb at Rosea. There are lots of great climbs that are rarely, if ever repeated. Anyone done the first pitch of Bourgeois Blues? Anyone repeated Titus or Fuschia? Anyone tried to take the last aid out of Royal Blues? Anyone tried to free the approach pitches of Melanoma (let alone the roof)? You don't need to ban bolts to preserve a cliff in cobwebs - just a lack of imagination. It was refreshing to see Goshen Watts and Tim Edwards have a big day a couple of months back doing a lot of rarely repeated climbs down the lefthand end. There needs to be more of this where people actually climb on the cliff, even the bits that aren't so great.

>
>In specific response to your points:

    >
  • No point fixing up It'll end in tears - it gets no ascents
  • Pull
    >the pin on Tourist Direct and you might find there's a brand new
    >micro cam slot
  • One Night Stand is a good example of a route
    >that doesn't need to exist - again no-one does it, and why would you, it's
    >13, boulder-y inconsistent 23, then 14
  • John Barleycorn might
    >just end up as a route which is a bit more serious - and that's okay so
    >long as people know this the case before they rock up

>

So only the routes deemed worthy shall have the fixed gear fixed up. This is patronising.

>I fundamentally object to the suggestion that we all have a right to bolt
>unclimbed rock - which you have assumed. How does that right supersede
>my right for a cliff I love to not be desecrated by hundreds of bolts ?
>

I'm not sugggesting either.

>Your desire for people to adhere to the general historic ethic of Rosea
>(minimal bolts) is incredibly wishful thinking - you're not the only one
>with a drill. I personally feel that unless you place a moratorium, this
>place is going to end up with 10 times the steel in it that is there now.
> You're certainly not the only one who loves that place.
>
>


FatBoy
9-May-2018
2:44:22 PM
@BigChris ... If you've never been there, why not take a trad rack, go and do Debutante and Heretic, and walk down the staircase in between ascents ?

(Rather than your first visit to put more metal into the cliff.)
dalai
9-May-2018
2:53:49 PM
On 9-May-2018 kieranl wrote:

>So only the routes deemed worthy shall have the fixed gear fixed up. This
>is patronising.

Premise is to remove all the existing bolts, not selective replacement.

FatBoy
9-May-2018
2:56:13 PM
On 9-May-2018 kieranl wrote:
> This was kicked off by Neil's gib comment that there are less than a handful of bolts.
> Noone seems to want to address that issue

Contrary to many, I'm not of the opinion that every bolt needs to stay simply because they were there in the 60's and 70's. So maybe Neil's comment should have more accurately said, "there were a handful of bolts that anyone actually used". The others could easily go.


>What strikes me is the
>generally limited number of routes that people climb at Rosea. There are
>lots of great climbs that are rarely, if ever repeated.

To some extent that proves the point - in general people go to Rosea for the adventure, not to push the limits of grade. Which is why this place (and it's really the only one in Victoria I can think of) makes sense as a strictly trad only cliff. Loads of other places nearby that will allow for grade pushing in great locations if that's your desire.

But what happens if it tips and becomes genuinely consumer friendly ? I looked with interest last time I was there - there's tonnes of hard new face climbs available if someone wants to bolt the crap out of it.

And my concern is that that is precisely what's going to happen.

FatBoy
9-May-2018
3:03:24 PM
On 9-May-2018 kieranl wrote:
>So only the routes deemed worthy shall have the fixed gear fixed up. This
>is patronising.
No, I didn't say that ... I would be happier if all routes there - even "worthy" ones didn't have anything in them. I simply used the 4 routes you listed as examples of how bolts can be less necessary than people initially think.

JamesMc
9-May-2018
4:44:59 PM
Leaving aside the far right end which is virtually a separate sport crag, a few rap anchors have worked wonders to open up some great climbing at Rosea. Around Mugs Alley and the appropriately named Heaven and Hell, these anchors let you climb 4O or 5Om of Rosea's best rock without climbing 50m or so of its worst. There aren't anchors above every climb like at a sport cliff- in some cases you have to walk to reach them. And its environmentally better to rap from chains than trees.

The Grampians does have a cliff with a bolt free ethic. Don't let the name put you off Deathmarch Wall, which incidentally was originally discovered and developed by Kieranl.

James Mc
Wendy
10-May-2018
12:01:25 PM
Oh god, the rosea debate again. Really, it has never been a bolt free crag. There have been bolts and anchors on it as long as I have been climbing. Above Debutante DS. The routes immediately right of it. At base of Scarface. If there aren't any to replace the old rap trees on RIP corner and Knick Kanck, there should be. Coronary Country and a few other things down there. Can people please stop deluding themselves? That is not even touching the pitons. Or tat. Or fixed wires. Or slings on trees. Fixed gear has existed since time immemorial at Rosea. Despite that, it has not been grid bolted. Can we please not have another slippery slope argument about it?

Back on topic, my general assessment of if something has enough gear is, would I lead it? Being the world's biggest wuss who bursts into tears above gear on grade 15 slabs, it's a fairly reliable measure. I have lead Blimp a lot. I have never clipped either the old piton or the old bolt. There is plenty of gear. I am all for replacing old fixed gear with modern gear when it is necessary, but this one is not necessary.

Using the same standard on Kingdom Come, I have led it a lot, and there are good small wires around the piton as well. Simey would be proud of me, I carry my microwires up an off width. The start, on the other hand, has no gear, is desperate, and i never do it without placing large wire with a stick. If I was to feel a need to retro KC, it'd be at the start. Rip the piton all you like, it doesn't need replacing. Mention microwires in the description if you want.

gordoste
10-May-2018
1:16:51 PM
I haven't done the climb, but if the bolt was in good nick when the FA was made, wouldn't replacing it be returning the climb to its original state?

But I could see how that would annoy people who are proud of ticking it without the bolt - from now on, it will not be as challenging.

Macciza
10-May-2018
2:04:55 PM
If the bolt or piton was put in for aid then it should not be replaced if it can be free climbed with out it.... it is unnecessary ...

If a piton was placed as protection, it should be attempted to be eliminated by the use of modern trad gear, not by replacing it with a bolt ...

oh, and if a glue-in bolt is placed next to bomber trad gear, it should be chopped...

nmonteith
10-May-2018
2:22:28 PM
On 10-May-2018 Wendy wrote:
>Oh god, the rosea debate again. Really, it has never been a bolt free crag.
>There have been bolts and anchors on it as long as I have been climbing.
>Above Debutante DS. The routes immediately right of it. At base of Scarface.

All on pretty worthless mega cruxy climbs that no one does. Those bolts always made me a little annoyed the very first time i saw them - yes they are some 'ard man routes from the 80s but did they really need to be the one to spoil the rest of the whole crag being potentially bolt free? Probably not. That rap chain about Debutante DS is especially an eyesore. Kieran - dare I say maybe we need to leave new routes that "might" need bolts for the younger/stronger/bolder next generation? Just this one crag could really be a beacon of bolt free for Victoria. Death March Wall is a tiny insignificant wall - its not a major area and is certainly not going to give scope for future bolt free new routes for generations to come.
Dave_S
10-May-2018
2:32:28 PM
On 10-May-2018 nmonteith wrote:
>That rap chain about Debutante DS is especially an eyesore.

It's been slightly less of an eyesore ever since I yanked it out (not difficult when it was only held in by stainless bash-ins) and replaced it with a glue-in anchor that doesn't have such unnecessarily long lengths of chain.
Wendy
10-May-2018
4:26:37 PM
On 10-May-2018 gordoste wrote:
>I haven't done the climb, but if the bolt was in good nick when the FA
>was made, wouldn't replacing it be returning the climb to its original
>state?
>
>But I could see how that would annoy people who are proud of ticking it
>without the bolt - from now on, it will not be as challenging.

It's not actually challenging to place the gear. If it was shitty, fiddly, hard to find gear, I'd say put a bolt in it. The gear on cranky babies or fly by night at araps for example is more fiddly.
Wendy
10-May-2018
4:36:44 PM
On 10-May-2018 nmonteith wrote:
>On 10-May-2018 Wendy wrote:
>>Oh god, the rosea debate again. Really, it has never been a bolt free
>crag.
>>There have been bolts and anchors on it as long as I have been climbing.
>>Above Debutante DS. The routes immediately right of it. At base of Scarface.
>
>All on pretty worthless mega cruxy climbs that no one does. Those bolts
>always made me a little annoyed the very first time i saw them - yes they
>are some 'ard man routes from the 80s but did they really need to be the
>one to spoil the rest of the whole crag being potentially bolt free?

But have they really spoiled the experience of doing heretic or debutante or hard times or the ascension or any of the classic trad routes? Well, maybe the route right of debutante ds if you really don't want to see token sportish routes. They exist. They have existed for a long time. Suddenly coming along 30 odd years later and saying we'll make a bolt free crag seems kinda silly. Iv had endless arguements about slippery slopes before, but strangely enough, Rosea has not turned into dreamtime wall (which might actually have been a bolt free crag when joe rediscovered it) in the 30 maybe 40 years since the first bolts went in it.

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