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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Poll Option Votes Graph
Pretend the outcrop doesn't exist & delete info 0
 
List the outcrop's location, clearly stating ban 17
94% 
Mention the outcrop is banned, but no details 0
 
Give up trying to educate idiots who climb choss 1
6% 
Other - please post a reply 0
 

Author
Best way to communicate closed crags

pmonks
4-May-2017
12:49:41 AM
So I'm working with a land manager who has banned climbing on one of the outcrops on land they manage (no great loss - it's a pile of choss anyway). I'm now looking at ways to communicate this closure to local climbers, who use both a local printed guidebook (which doesn't list the outcrop at all) and various online guides (most of which do list the outcrop, but say that climbing there is banned).

One of these online resources (but by no means the only) is TheCrag, who appear to have a policy of removing location information upon request of the land manager. I happen to think that's counterproductive in this case, since the banned outcrop is in the middle of a park in a large city (population pressure is high), is obviously visible from numerous points in the park (including several of the legally climbable outcrops), and (from a distance) looks quite promising.

In general, do you think the most effective form of communicating this kind of closure to local climbers is to:

pmonks
4-May-2017
4:06:53 AM
To everyone who answers with "Mention the outcrop is banned, but no details", riddle me this: if there are no details (location, in particular) how are climbers supposed to know which outcrop it is and therefore where not to climb?

Simply saying "Slartibartfast Rock is closed to climbing." assumes everyone knows where "Slartibartfast Rock" is.

rodw
4-May-2017
6:33:32 AM
You need to list the information so down the line when some one stumbles across the new best crag eva they will quickly see in a Google search it been climbed before and is banned. When I discover a new choss best crag eva I always do research to see if any history access issues etc..if wiped how would one go about doing that?

ajfclark
Online Now
4-May-2017
7:19:22 AM
Climbers seem to think bans don't apply to them personally anyway, so I think you're fighting an uphill battle.

Signs at the access point seems to be the only method I know that prevents "oh, I didn't know - where did you find that? Online everywhere? I didn't look sorry..." and even then you still get "Oh, I didn't see the sign" "oh, the gate was unlocked" "oh, there's loads of tyre tracks around the gate so I thought it was ok" etc

Duang Daunk
4-May-2017
12:53:22 PM
On 4/05/2017 pmonks wrote:
>So I'm working with a land manager who has banned climbing on one of the
>outcrops on land they manage (no great loss - it's a pile of choss anyway).
> I'm now looking at ways to communicate this closure to local climbers,
>who use both a local printed guidebook (which doesn't list the outcrop
>at all) and various online guides (most of which do list the outcrop, but
>say that climbing there is banned).
>
>One of these online resources (but by no means the only) is TheCrag, who
>appear to have a policy of removing location information upon request of
>the land manager. I happen to think that's counterproductive in this case,
>since the banned outcrop is in the middle of a park in a large city (population
>pressure is high), is obviously visible from numerous points in the park
>(including several of the legally climbable outcrops), and (from a distance)
>looks quite promising.
>
>In general, do you think the most effective form of communicating this
>kind of closure to local climbers is to:

First world problem bro.
Bro AJF is right, bring back the anarchy I say, as the only way said landowner will stop it is to make an example of an offender; hopefully not with a shotgun.
martym
4-May-2017
2:08:29 PM
Where is Slartibartfast Rock??? I totally want to climb that - but there are no Fjords in Australia?
kieranl
4-May-2017
2:24:25 PM
It might be helpful if online guides developed a data value for access (eg open, seasonal, restricted, banned) with different page styles for each. Maybe too late for any sites built on old technology but modern sites should be built on more flexible platforms. Not going to hold my breath though.
martym
4-May-2017
10:00:14 PM
What do you mean by "no details"? It doesn't sound like you are saying "tere is a rock but it's banned"... You could describe the rock and even mention there have been climbs without identifying them..
I find it weird when people put in super detailed pitch by pitch descriptions of climbs you can't (shouldn't) do?
Eg. Three sisters. Why not just say "there were several popular climbs up the three sisters, one on this arÍte, one on the other side -but due to the volume of tourists climbing is now banned".
technogeekery
4-May-2017
10:02:33 PM
On 4/05/2017 kieranl wrote:
>It might be helpful if online guides developed a data value for access
>(eg open, seasonal, restricted, banned) with different page styles for
>each. Maybe too late for any sites built on old technology but modern sites
>should be built on more flexible platforms. Not going to hold my breath
>though.

TheCrag does have good fields for access notes.

pmonks
5-May-2017
3:20:14 AM
On 4/05/2017 martym wrote:
>What do you mean by "no details"? It doesn't sound like you are saying
>"tere is a rock but it's banned"... You could describe the rock and even
>mention there have been climbs without identifying them..

It's mostly location information I'm referring to as "details". My argument being that without precise location information there's always ambiguity and/or plausible deniability.

>I find it weird when people put in super detailed pitch by pitch descriptions
>of climbs you can't (shouldn't) do?

Mostly agree, although there are historical situations (e.g. 3 Sisters) where I could be persuaded that the information has value beyond just being a guide for climbers who want to climb it.

But in this specific case that doesn't apply, so the outcrop (deliberately) doesn't have much more detail than a "climbing here is banned, and it's choss anyway, so please stay away to preserve good relations with the land manager". The question at hand is whether its precise location should be listed or not - does that result in more climbers staying away more of the time or not.

pmonks
5-May-2017
3:28:48 AM
On 4/05/2017 technogeekery wrote:
>On 4/05/2017 kieranl wrote:
>>It might be helpful if online guides developed a data value for access
>>(eg open, seasonal, restricted, banned) with different page styles for
>>each.
>
>TheCrag does have good fields for access notes.

And those have been used in this case, including links to the relevant parts of the plan of management.

But I also agree with kieranl that visually this isn't anywhere near enough. To continue picking on TheCrag for a moment (which is a bit unfair, given that I think Simon & Brendan have done an amazing job), I'd prefer it if every time someone navigated to a banned / illegal / legally dubious crag page, the page background changed colour, there was some kind of semi-transparent "CLIMBING HERE IS ILLEGAL!" overlay, and a 120dB klaxon goes off until they navigate away.

Just as most climbers don't read plans of management, most climbers aren't going to pore over the fine print in guidebooks, and online guidebooks have a great opportunity to unavoidably ram access information down climbers' throats.

pmonks
5-May-2017
3:33:38 AM
On 4/05/2017 ajfclark wrote:
>Climbers seem to think bans don't apply to them personally anyway, so I
>think you're fighting an uphill battle.

Yeah. And then land managers come back with "you can't regulate yourselves, so watch us regulate your recreational activity off our land". #fail

>Signs at the access point seems to be the only method I know that prevents
>"oh, I didn't know - where did you find that? Online everywhere? I didn't
>look sorry..." and even then you still get "Oh, I didn't see the sign"
>"oh, the gate was unlocked" "oh, there's loads of tyre tracks around the
>gate so I thought it was ok" etc

Yep. Stupid selfish aŖholes are everywhere... ...in the US they even have a fancy name for themselves to try to sound slightly less idiotic: "Libertarians".

On 4/05/2017 Duang Daunk wrote:
>Bro AJF is right, bring back the anarchy I say, as the only way said landowner
>will stop it is to make an example of an offender; hopefully not with a
>shotgun.

This is a city parks dept, so they're more likely to just ban climbing in the park altogether, which fscks it up for everyone. That's the outcome I'm working hard to avoid.

ajfclark
Online Now
5-May-2017
7:00:35 AM
On 5/05/2017 pmonks wrote:
>This is a city parks dept, so they're more likely to just ban climbing
>in the park altogether, which fscks it up for everyone. That's the outcome
>I'm working hard to avoid.

And then the ban hammer comes down, the people responsible will cry "but we didn't know..."



I think TheCrag should also always expand the ban note on a closed crag. On mobile, they are collapsed by default. Maybe even an annoying pop up message before the page displays that says "Climbing here is banned/closed/etc. These route details are presented for historic reasons only. Please don't climb here and permanently f--- it up for everyone else."

There are 13 messages in this topic.

 

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