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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 3 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 85
Author
The Eyrie, Mt Boyce retrobolted! Badly...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
2/01/2017
11:50:33 AM
On 2/01/2017 rodw wrote:
>On 2/01/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>
>>Re the 'safety reasons' that you cite, and given the significant history of the route...
>>Could you please elaborate?
>
>Total guess here but guessing meaning someone who starts up thinking bolts
>a plenty and finds they are not? ..doesnt really matter anyway as original
>bolter said will remove so really discussion about these particular bolts
>are over.

If that is the case then I badly underestimate the speed of spreading-word re safetyised-climbs, as history shows it was 'safe enough'...
Such a different mindset these days...
Once upon a time bolts were only placed sparingly, and even then only when absolutely necessary for sanity when nil other protection could be obtained.

rodw
2/01/2017
12:57:01 PM
On 2/01/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:

>If that is the case then I badly underestimate the speed of spreading-word
>re safetyised-climbs, as history shows it was 'safe enough'...


I think it would be unlikely in this case but some ppl use online guides as reference etc and thecrag had been updated with new bolt info so ya never know.
Wendy
2/01/2017
3:58:29 PM
Evan, I vote for replacing them with glue in fixed hangers or rings. There are already new routes covered in them on that wall anyway and I am well and truly of the school that thinks carrots have done their time and we can move on now, thanks. Replace old fixed gear with modern fixed gear.

I haven't done the Eyrie since the mid 90s, but I led it a lot back then and whilst I didn't climb as well then as I did now, I was as wussy as I am now so I figure it can't have been too bad. If a route is poorly protected, hasn't been getting any traffic in its existing state and can be cleaned up into a worthwhile route, I'm generally in favour of adding bolts unless the first ascentionist objects or it was a significant ground up first ascent. I don't think bolting The Eyrie can be justified under those conditions. Although it sounds like plenty of similar things have already happened in the Blueys. What's the difference with Hocus Pocus for example?

There is a popular call for easy sport routes these days. I think people need to chill out about this expectation that the rock will miraculousy produce exactly what we want to climb. I really wish geology wouldn't form great climbing separated by horrendous reach problems, but it does. I'm not going around bolting on holds to overcome this problem. I go find another route instead. The Blueys have always been a crap place to be a beginner. They are less so these days with the odd place like the Soft Parade, but the same principle as my overcoming reachy routes applies. People just have to climb something else. The options are either getting better (via lots of t/r and seconding), learning trad (which in all honesty is best done at Araps), or being restricted to the same few areas. The cause of accidents is not a lack of easy bolted climbs. Most of the time it's a poor judgement on behalf of the climber. It might help if as a culture, we didn't diss toproping as much so people didn't feel they weren't real climbers or feel pressured to lead early on. It's fine for people to t/r until they can climb high teens where a few more sport routes exist. And if they never climb high teens, they can learn to place gear, climb the same few routes again and again or keep on toproping. Or go develop easy granite slabs into sport crags ... it's the best source of unprotectable easy rock in the country.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
2/01/2017
4:41:39 PM
Sorry Wendy but I have to disagree with a lot of that ^ last post, and cite the following...

On 1/01/2017 Martym wrote: (In looking at the Guide)...
>For reference:
>The Eyrie - 12, Four Stars.50m
>A great route with a classic belay stance. Perhaps a little run-out for
>beginners. FA J Worrall. H Ward 1969
>
>Blue Mountains Climbing 2010 edition

Here is some earlier reference that shines an interesting light on the subject climb.

Climbers Guide to Mt Boyce.
Sydney Rock Climbing Club, third(?) edition 1981.

46 pages, about half of which are introduction, history, maps, and photographs, etc, and containing 86 climbs; the first of which went up around February 1967.

From it the following description…

The Eyrie, Gd 12, 50m.
A fine arête climb. Originally done in three pitches, can be split at the cave (The Eyrie – more pleasant) as below, or at the first ledge (more convenient).
The bolt in the cave is not original and is not necessary.
Start: Behind trees and blocks about 9m right of Abseil Gully.
1. 30m. Up balancy slab to large ledge. Up trending left to the arête and up it on the right to the obvious cave. Belay here.
2. 18m. Up left hand side, then across to the nose and up to the top.
John Worrall & Hugh Ward. June 1969.


Other interesting comments in that Guide include the following;…

We have tried to keep the route descriptions accurate.

Information can become inaccurate even before it is published. Don’t expect pitons or bolts, or even trees, to be there just because a book or someone says so.

The meaning of words is not always clear. If the climb is not what you expected from the description the decision to go on is yours entirely. Be prepared to take it as it comes, carry adequate leading gear, and have in mind how you will handle an emergency such as being stranded on an unprotected ledge.

The Mt Boyce cliffline is perhaps best noted for the easy climbs at the western end, which provide the best beginners instruction area in the Blue Mountains.

In addition the cliff offers a range of fine easy, medium and hard climbs on good rock.

As an aside, I also note as part of Mt Boyce early development that SRC set up and maintained a Belay Practice System behind and above the camping cave there, for instructional purposes; and that the first Guides to the area contained much instructional material along with what was considered to be ‘common sense’ content for both leaders and new adherents to the past time of rock climbing.



IdratherbeclimbingM9
2/01/2017
4:49:21 PM
Hmm.
The Eyrie, put up 1969.
1981 Guide says "The bolt in the cave is not original and is not necessary."
2016 it was re-retroed into a sadder condition...
The climb is now 46 years old and has how many bolts?

Thanks Macciza for bringing it to our attention and also for de-cluttering it!
Wendy
2/01/2017
5:03:45 PM
M9, did you misunderstand what I said about the Eyrie? I said it didn't fit my criteria for retrobolting ...
Rawpowa!
2/01/2017
5:13:43 PM
On 2/01/2017 Wendy wrote:


>
>There is a popular call for easy sport routes these days. I think people
>need to chill out about this expectation that the rock will miraculousy
>produce exactly what we want to climb. I really wish geology wouldn't form
>great climbing separated by horrendous reach problems, but it does. I'm
>not going around bolting on holds to overcome this problem. I go find another
>route instead. The Blueys have always been a crap place to be a beginner.
>They are less so these days with the odd place like the Soft Parade, but
>the same principle as my overcoming reachy routes applies. People just
>have to climb something else. The options are either getting better (via
>lots of t/r and seconding), learning trad (which in all honesty is best
>done at Araps), or being restricted to the same few areas. The cause of
>accidents is not a lack of easy bolted climbs. Most of the time it's a
>poor judgement on behalf of the climber. It might help if as a culture,
>we didn't diss toproping as much so people didn't feel they weren't real
>climbers or feel pressured to lead early on. It's fine for people to t/r
>until they can climb high teens where a few more sport routes exist. And
>if they never climb high teens, they can learn to place gear, climb the
>same few routes again and again or keep on toproping. Or go develop easy
>granite slabs into sport crags ... it's the best source of unprotectable
>easy rock in the country.

I totally agree that it's hard to find good easy climbs in the Bluies not because they haven't been bolted but because they don't really exist. Climbs under around 18 lack climbing moves and tend to be ledgy, which is why they are much more suited to trad where part of the appeal is the 'adventurous' style of climbing. I've only been climbing for a few years only leading trad for about 18 months but I was thinking about leading some of the lower grade classics this year (Cave Climb, Toll etc) and part of the appeal is the adventure style which is totally ruined if it is retrobolted. I mainly lead sport in the Bluies and there are so many bolted routes out there that I really don't see the need for more lower grade climbs, it just takes a bit of time and training and you really should be able to lead fun sport routes and the reality is the window for people enjoying a grade 12 sport route is limited to just the start of your climbing 'career'.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
2/01/2017
5:15:10 PM
On 2/01/2017 Wendy wrote:
>M9, did you misunderstand what I said about the Eyrie? I said it didn't
>fit my criteria for retrobolting ...

I understand that, but disagree with other bits like; ...
>I vote for replacing them with...
Why the need?

>There are already new routes covered in them on that wall anyway
~> Poor precedent.

>The Blueys have always been a crap place to be a beginner.
That wasn't my experience.

>learning trad (which in all honesty is best done at Araps)
... and one would end up molly-coddled by bomber rock and placements which isn't necessarily the case climbing elsewhere.

>or being restricted to the same few areas
(see above)

> t/r until they can climb high teens (etc)
Why not simply learn trad from a Guide, mentor, books, mates, etc...

We likely agree to disagree, so end of thread hijack on my part.
:)
Wendy
2/01/2017
6:07:46 PM
On 2/01/2017 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 2/01/2017 Wendy wrote:
>>M9, did you misunderstand what I said about the Eyrie? I said it didn't
>>fit my criteria for retrobolting ...
>
>I understand that, but disagree with other bits like; ...
>>I vote for replacing them with...
>Why the need?

We can definitely disagree about that one! i think carrots should be history.
>
>>There are already new routes covered in them on that wall anyway
>~> Poor precedent.
>
It does mean that replacing a single bolt elsewhere on that
wall with another hanger is not the issue of the wall. The main issue with the "new" routes for me is not the fixed hangers, it is that some of them retro other routes whilst claiming to be new routes. I wish people putting up new routes could read guidebooks in the first place.

>>The Blueys have always been a crap place to be a beginner.
>That wasn't my experience

But those were the "good ol' days" .... climbing was almost never really safe then. These days climbing can actually be safe, but there is crap all to learn on in the Blueys without going back to the good ol' days style - not many really easy routes, lots of questionable rock, ledges, questionable gear and falling off is going to be serious.

>
>>learning trad (which in all honesty is best done at Araps)
>... and one would end up molly-coddled by bomber rock and placements which
>isn't necessarily the case climbing elsewhere.

So? Does one need to actually learn on crappy rock and poor gear? What use is that? My argument is that one can get basic competence in placing gear, rope management etc. in good conditions and then gradually transfer those skills to more challenging situations. It also means that beginners are less likely to be getting out of their depth and getting hurt and people can stop doing things like retrobolting easier Blueys routes to meet a demand for safe beginner experiences in the Blueys which don't really exist otherwise.
>
>>or being restricted to the same few areas
>(see above)

I'm talking about those people who insist on limiting their climbing to easy sport routes. If that's all someone wants to climb, they have a limited pool of routes to choose from and I don't think we should just make easy sport routes happen (by bolting naturally protectable lines, retrobolting etc etc) to cater for them. Surely this is a point we actually agree on???
>
>> t/r until they can climb high teens (etc)
>Why not simply learn trad from a Guide, mentor, books, mates, etc...

This was again talking about those people who are asking for easy sport routes. They can just top rope until they are capable of climbing the grades that sport climbing becomes prolific at. Learning trad was the other option in my list for people who for whatever reason never climb at the level at which sport climbing takes off. I don't really understand the modern aversion to trad. It is the easiest way to access a wide range of safe climbing experiences at all grades.

I would have thought we agreed about the range of options that are realistically available to the crowd demanding easy sport as if we could just wave a wand and find a cliff loaded with jugs but no gear placements.

On the carrots however, you and Macca will just have to share a few drinks shaking your heads at my irresponsible rejection of Australia's climbing history ...
Wendy
2/01/2017
6:10:17 PM
I nearly forgot the other bit of this discussion I found bizarre - why do people always want to blame guides for things they don't like in the development of climbing? What use is retroing the Eyrie to a guide who can already cruise up it in sandshoes?
PThomson
2/01/2017
7:20:28 PM
The last of the retrobolts (and the above mentioned "half removed bolt") are now gone.

If you want your hangers and machine bolts back, Tim, you can collect them from me at some juncture.

- Paul T
robbio
2/01/2017
10:22:42 PM
News like this is disappointing to say the least. It reminds me of how i felt when i first heard the news of Trump's presidential election win in the USA...

I logged onto chockstone shortly before going to work this morning, read the start of the post, got pissed off, and only now have i had a chance to add my two cents.

Yes it's no secret that the blueys is lacking in easier "beginner friendly" routes compared to some other climbing destinations. It doesn't have a Summerday Valley, nor does it have countless easy classics with ample bomber gear like Arapiles, but that's just how it is.... Doing a retro like this is SO not the answer.

A would-be retro bolter needs to realise that to allow the dumbing down or "modernising" of classic historical climbs such as The Eyrie in order to make them more accessable to some, would inevitably make the route less memorable for EVERYONE ELSE capable and wanting to climb it just the way it is. Just because its an easy grade doesn't mean that a shit-hot climber like myself doesn't find the climbing on The Eyre enjoyable, for instance. Like what others have said here, the climb is already popular, and although it is run out at times the guidebook route description mentions this anyways. Any climber beginner or otherwise should take route descriptions like this on board before committing to a climb.

It amazes me how someone would unashamadely go ahead and do such a thing without any consultation of any kind. I am glad Tim has owned up to this and offered to undo his works, but i still shake my head and wonder how things like this happen. How much is arrogance, ignorance, and how much is plain stupidity....?

If anything positive comes out of this discussion, I hope that all would-be retro bolters think twice before doing something stupid like this. The overwhelming disapproval of this act within this thread really speaks volumes about what is not acceptable within our climbing community.

I had nothing new to add to this conversation, but i needed to vent. Complaining about it to my (non-climber) partner just didn't cut it in this case (even though she and i did the aforementioned climb together years ago, and she came so very very close to shitting her pants out of fear whilst seconding me on the final pitch).

Classic climbs leave classic memories. Lets keep the memories alive.





Estey
3/01/2017
6:48:49 AM
On 1/01/2017 E. Wells wrote:
>I would like to rebolt 'Another Mans Juliet' and 'Sweet Irish'.
Not particularily interested in technical advice. Moreso
>how should I replace bashies if I decide that I have the time , energy
>and money.

I vote for glued in machine bolts with heads painted. This is aesthetically more appropriate for the wall in question. Maybe wack a in a ring on the crux of AMJ (the bit were you head left past the 2 carrots). I thought getting the bolt plates on there was a bit fiddly which detracted from the route.

Thanks in advance for doing the work and PM me if you want a $ contribution.
Martym
3/01/2017
10:01:11 AM
My brother lives in Balmoral about 1hr from Arapiles and has recently caught the climbin bug - previously he'd let me drag him up stuff, but now has his own rack and is climbing there quite regularly.
He and his partner were in Nowra and I sent him the Thompsons Point link and I got this message:
"Nowra is pretty much all 14 and above, is that the way most sports walls are?"
technogeekery
3/01/2017
10:17:30 AM
I'm really surprised that anyone could think it acceptable to retro-bolt a much loved classic without any consultation. timfreddo, great that you are quick to accept ownership of this and have accepted consensus view regarding removal of your retro-bolts. It is not really clear whether Macca and Paul have repaired the bolt holes when they chopped this - perhaps you could check and if they have not, please make every effort to hide the holes / rock damage.

Hopefully you'll thoroughly canvas opinion before considering rebolting or retrobolting any existing climb in future. You'll have seen from the comments here that there MAY be some support for considering resurrecting old climbs that are never done because of combo of low grade / no pro by judiciously adding a bolt or two - I can think of a few obscurities in the Boyce area that could be candidates. But few of them are worthwhile climbs - the good ones are regularly climbed and enjoyed as they are.
PThomson
3/01/2017
11:24:10 AM
On 3/01/2017 technogeekery wrote:
>...It is not really clear whether Macca
>and Paul have repaired the bolt holes when they chopped this - perhaps
>you could check and if they have not, please make every effort to hide
>the holes / rock damage.

I didn't have any glue with me to patch and camouflage the holes. My original plan was to do that next weekend, but Macca advises me that Tim is keen to assist in repairing the damage ASAP.

-Paul T
Mr Poopypants
3/01/2017
3:16:08 PM
On 3/01/2017 Estey wrote:

Maybe wack a in a ring on the
>crux of AMJ (the bit were you head left past the 2 carrots). I thought
>getting the bolt plates on there was a bit fiddly which detracted from
>the route.

Another Man's Juliet doesn't have a crux where you head left past carrots??? It only has a few carrots on the bottom bit, which is very easy and takes gear. The top half is the crux and is all bomber gear. It really doesn't need rebolting at all. Set, Piece, Battle could probably do with it, but it really is fine.
Tim and Macca - Bunnings sell brickwork repair tubes for about $3 in sandstone, grey etc. (Selleys) Much cheaper, easier and less messy than glue.
G.

rodw
3/01/2017
3:23:35 PM
On 3/01/2017 Mr Poopypants wrote:
>Bunnings sell brickwork repair tubes for about $3 in sandstone,
>grey etc. (Selleys) Much cheaper, easier and less messy than glue.
>G.

Learn something everyday..good to know..thanks Poopy :)
Mr Poopypants
3/01/2017
3:36:55 PM
I think they have that colour, too! :-)
mikllaw
3/01/2017
3:51:13 PM
On 3/01/2017 Mr Poopypants wrote:
>I think they have that colour, too! :-)

and sprinkle/rub some sand into the patching glue

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