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General Climbing Discussion

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Grading


rodw

31-May-2004
3:01:17 PM

I take it we are only talking about trad routes here, as in the Uk sport routes use the french sport grading system. Our grading system is for both sport and trad and with any system is a GUIDE ONLY to indicate relative hardness of route.

I do prefer to onsight things if I can (very rarely do as i tend to fall of nearly everything), but to me climbing is a personal achievement not dictated by onsights, flashing, redpointing, gardes, blah blah blah. Its the fun of the moves and climb, not the polotics of how ya get there, so if someone claims they climb "25", thats fine by me as it is all about having a go and having FUN!!! Everyone will have there own standards they want to achieve, and for anyone to say you havent climbed a certain grade because you havent onsighted it, just brings in more politics we dont need.


phil_nev

1-Jun-2004
12:37:51 AM

This discussion will just go round and round in circles. As Jark said, grading is soo subjective, depending on the F.A and the style in which the route was done.

I tend to think that a lot of routes in aus are not graded on the hardest move. Just go to the gallery, muline, millenium and even taipan. The hardest moves on the majority of these routes are not particulary hard (From my experiance on routes graded 26 and below). Ive also been told by stronger climbers that on the harder things, its the same sittuation. Pump factor, must be factored into route grading otherwise monkey puzzle would be 25 (So ive been told).

There are also other factors that will ultimatly affect the grading ofd a route. Surely a lot of routes will be harder to 'onsight' with NO chalk on it. So if the F.A does the route ground up first shot with no chalk, should they undergrade the route because there is now chalk on it which will make it easier for repeat assensionists??? Of course not....

But just something else to think about....

Phil


rodw

1-Jun-2004
12:20:02 PM

Ive found over the years that most areas grades are consistant with that area. If Im at a new area, I tend to always get on the easiest stuff first well within normal onsight ability (not that that leaves me a large scope of grades top consider :) ) and use it as a 4 reference. Chnaces are if I found the 16 hard for the grade (normally do anyway), the 19 next to it is gonna be hard for the grade too.

I was recently in England and the local I was climbing with actually tried to explain the english system, ie servere, very difficult, E1 blah blah blah. it came out that even with all there different extensions, additions to any grade he found problem as well, much like we have discussed.

The most valuable thing in any guide book is the route description. You can get a very rough idea about a climb using the grade, but it wil be the sighting of the route and route description that wil determine if ya do it our not. The grades a guide only, its not meant to be definative, and if you start adding extesion to the ewbank system your in effect creating a shorthand version of the description, so rather than do that and need a degree to read a gudie book, just use the description like we normally do now.


nmonteith

1-Jun-2004
12:32:13 PM

I actually think a lot more climbers would establish or attempt trad routes if the ethic was broadened to eccept the pre-placement of gear on any grade route (not just 28+ routes). I know that when i bolt new routes sometimes i find un-obvious or very fiddly - but still bomber - natural gear which i ingnore as no one will be alble to place it mid crux without intense beta. If people were allowed to rap down and pre-place and still get 'the tick' then I think some of the extra bolts woudln't be needed. I have many people tell me i have ruined perfectly good potenital sport routes by leaving one or two bits of trad in a mostly bolted route though....


Rich

1-Jun-2004
1:54:45 PM

On 1/06/2004 nmonteith wrote:
>I actually think a lot more climbers would establish or attempt trad routes
>if the ethic was broadened to eccept the pre-placement of gear on any grade
>route (not just 28+ routes). I know that when i bolt new routes sometimes
>i find un-obvious or very fiddly - but still bomber - natural gear which
>i ingnore as no one will be alble to place it mid crux without intense
>beta. If people were allowed to rap down and pre-place and still get 'the
>tick' then I think some of the extra bolts woudln't be needed. I have many
>people tell me i have ruined perfectly good potenital sport routes by leaving
>one or two bits of trad in a mostly bolted route though....

I agree with those people too neil. leaving a few trad placements on a mostly bolted route is a bit like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. its not really a trad route anymore so why try to pretend that it is..

Preplacing gear is always an option on easier routes but IMO i don't think it will ever be accepted when there is a much 'cleaner' option available.


nmonteith

1-Jun-2004
1:56:13 PM

see - wildly opposing viewpoints from Edward and Rich. I can't win either way!!!


IdratherbeclimbingM9

1-Jun-2004
2:40:34 PM

Obviously a 3rd category of climb grade/description needed for the 'combo' routes using both bolts and wigglies ... !!!

I found Rodw's comment about poms finding their 'extensive' grade description still 'wanting' (ie similar dilemmas to Ewbank system after all the boiling down) very telling.

I grade by 'onsight' version.

Edward
>Lastly, and most importantly, if I'm standing at the bottom (getting ready to onsight) a thin RP protected trad climb with a serious chance of killing myself if I blow it, I want to be damn sure of how the grading system works.

Why ? Does the Coroner need to know ??


IdratherbeclimbingM9

1-Jun-2004
4:18:39 PM

On 1/06/2004 Edward Frillypants wrote:
>get on it and find that the grade it has been given reflects how
>hard the climb feels if you've pre-placed the gear, top-roped or worked
>the route and then 'redpointed' it. Given it will feel 2 grades harder
>to onsight, then I could be in serious trouble.

The zenith of my experience is onsighting new routes ground up (nil rehearsals etc).
Serious trouble or cul-de-saking at the least, are real possibilities. It goes with the territory.
If your perusal of a guidebook turned out to be misinformation (sandbag), or the FA was a giant (if you are a midget), or FA used particular jiggery-pokery, this would/could lead to similar 'serious trouble' ...
Grading a climb does not necessarily make it a 'known' option.

For Adventure-climbing this does not matter ... , but I can see how it would help others who perhaps are more into the numbers game.

gfdonc

1-Jun-2004
4:22:54 PM

On 1/06/2004 Rich wrote:
>
>I agree with those people too neil. leaving a few trad placements on a
>mostly bolted route is a bit like closing the stable door after the horse
>has bolted. its not really a trad route anymore so why try to pretend that
>it is..

Hang on .. what are we saying here .. that because there's a perfectly good cam or nut placement we should place a bolt next to it anyway? NO THANKS.


rodw

1-Jun-2004
4:45:27 PM

On 1/06/2004 Edward Frillypants wrote:
>> I found Rodw's comment about poms finding their 'extensive' grade description
>still 'wanting' (ie similar dilemmas to Ewbank system after all the boiling
>down) very telling.
>
>So did I (but no doubt for very different reasons from you).
>
Not sure by what you mean by that Edward, but no doubt you totally agree with me cause your such an agreeable type of chap:)

dalai

1-Jun-2004
5:17:48 PM

On 1/06/2004 Edward Frillypants wrote:
>
>Nevertheless, onsighting (or attempting to onsight) trad routes represents
>the zenith of my climbing experience. Quite obviously, if I try to onsight
>a possibly poorly protected trad climb approaching my limit, then I don't
>want to get on it and find that the grade it has been given reflects how
>hard the climb feels if you've pre-placed the gear, top-roped or worked
>the route and then 'redpointed' it. Given it will feel 2 grades harder
>to onsight, then I could be in serious trouble.

Regardless whether the grade is for onsight or Redpoint, we all differ physiologically. So that climb still could vary at least a couple of grades from what's suggested, depending your on strengths/weaknesses etc.

Just check the guide description first for any suggestions as to the protection situation, and if it's near your limit just move on to a climb that isn't.


alrob

1-Jun-2004
6:37:55 PM

On 1/06/2004 gfdonc wrote:

>
>Hang on .. what are we saying here .. that because there's a perfectly
>good cam or nut placement we should place a bolt next to it anyway? NO
>THANKS.
>

i think the point of neils statement was that there are times when the ISNT't a perfectly good nut or cam placement. the times that when there is an opportunity to get gear, it is either mid crux, blind placements, fiddly gear etc - not perfectly good placements.

just think of placing a nut blindly into a small flaring slot, which then uses up the hold you would need to use. wouldn't you prefer to just have a super bomber bolt instead? i think it is in cases like these that neil is talking about....well, thats what i made of it. i may be wrong tho......:S


nmonteith

2-Jun-2004
10:55:09 AM

On 1/06/2004 alrob wrote:

>i think the point of neils statement was that there are times when the
>ISNT't a perfectly good nut or cam placement.
>just think of placing a nut blindly into a small flaring slot, which then
>uses up the hold you would need to use. wouldn't you prefer to just have
>a super bomber bolt instead? i think it is in cases like these that neil
>is talking about....well, thats what i made of it. i may be wrong tho......:S

Yep thats what i meant Al. When down-aiding during the bolting i use skyhooks, black aliens, small sieways offset nuts ect in places most leaders woudln't find on lead. If the route is mostly bolted already i would just place anoither bolt instead of forcing someone to own a specific piece of gear and have rap inspecected to be able to do the climb.


rodw

2-Jun-2004
11:15:14 AM

>You mention you had a short trip to the UK and a local 'tried to explain'
>it to you. The UK grading system IS complicated and specific in it's application.
>If you didn't think it worked too well then perhaps (just perhaps) a) you
>might not have been fully grounded in its theory and b) you didn't have
>long enough to develop your understanding of it. Even highly experienced
>UK climbers tell me that it takes a lot of getting used to the interaction
>between the adjectival and technical grades and that, if you haven't used
>it for a while, you will need to 're-calibrate your scales'.

Thats my point, wehats the use of a complicated grading system if you need a thesis to know what it means. Ewbank is simple gives and idea, a decsription does the rest. you dont need to be climbing years before you can understand a guide book.

Speaking of integrity though, even the UK system has it flaws. The local i was climbing with does alot of onsights e, (ie climbs mostly in cornwell on sea cliffs putting up new routes by onsight up to grade 25). And hes claiming as the climbing community gettng bigger in the UK, the system is being corrupted by basic egos. People not admiting to working routes etc etc. thus the systme is suffering. I reckon keep it simple use a description which people are more likely to revise than a grade in each new guide book.

4-Jun-2004
10:50:55 AM

EFP,

E7 maybe for very well protected 28's. Another example springs to mind - Cobwebs (28) at Araps, I think is probably considered more like E8 (E9 possibly), with a hard technical grade as well (6c / 7a), (a climb not quickly repeated by many of the hard core Brits or others over the years).


Rupert

4-Jun-2004
10:55:05 AM

I've got an issue of a British Climbing mag at home somewhere (couple years old now) and it has an article on Arapiles where the visiting Poms gave British grades to a lot of the classics at Araps.


rodw

4-Jun-2004
11:34:57 AM

See didnt need to reply:)

chris

4-Jun-2004
11:43:25 AM

On the subject of "almost" sport routes, I must admit finding a few routes in the Gramps a bit strange that way recently. The 25 at Red Rocks of Neils has a single wire placement, with about 5 bolts and a loweroff (I think).... must admit I feel it would be better with just another bolt! Apart from this a fantastic crag and excellent route.... Gerry Narkowicz would go absolutely crazy with his bolt gun if he had that in his back yard!


nmonteith

4-Jun-2004
11:54:28 AM

Strike the First Blow at Red Rocks - i left it as a fixed wire - but of course someone stole it.

There are 39 messages in this topic.