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Author

Stacked nuts

Drake

13-Nov-2016
8:02:38 PM

Hey, check out my nuts!

I placed these opposed nuts as part of a belay on Clockwork Orange (20, Shipley Lower, between pitches 2 and 3). My partner thought they were comical, was afraid to breath on them too hard, and took these photos to shame me. So what do you think?

The gear at this belay is all a bit marginal so my anchor had 6 pieces. One of these pieces was these opposed nuts.

kieranl

13-Nov-2016
10:37:14 PM

Strictly "stacked" rather than opposed nuts. Typically opposed nuts are both loaded. Used to be very common pre-camming devices in horizontal cracks where each nut was only good for pull in one direction.

That said, it's a good technique to know about, This placement is probably a bit less stable than some because the upward pointing nut is side-on. But I guess you work with what you've got.

One Day Hero

13-Nov-2016
11:28:12 PM

The stacked nuts look good. Unfortunately all 3 placements in your photo are relying on one shitty looking block made of Blueys choss, so you lose marks there. I feel like a better equalisation method for your gear would be to keep climbing up to the huge tree on top of pitch 3 (only another 15m up) and fuch off this shitty intermediate belay entirely.

PeterW

13-Nov-2016
11:28:45 PM

I don't think stacked nuts are inherently bad, although I don't know that I'd go so far as to say "bomber". (Where's the "A lot better than nothing" option?)

The two biggest problems with stacked nuts are that firstly there's a lot more ways to stuff them up, and secondly you wouldn't want to use them as a runner due to the risk of unexpected movement loosening the stack. But a nice static belay should be fine as a secondary piece.

I've used them for aid, and I'd be surprised if I hadn't used them a time or two on a belay in the early pre-cam days when my rack was a *lot* smaller.

Drake

14-Nov-2016
8:17:00 AM

>>> I feel like a better equalisation method for your gear would be to keep climbing up to the huge tree on top of pitch 3 (only another 15m up) and fuch off this shitty intermediate belay entirely.

Yep, I considered that. It was windy and I could just barely communicate with my partner by screaming from this stance. There is no chance that we could have heard each other if I went to the top. This still would have worked: we have an agreed-on non-verbal system of communication based on rope tugs. But I opted to build the belay.

ajfclark

14-Nov-2016
8:39:41 AM

What happens if that cam pops? Will it pull the upward facing stacked nut out?

kieranl

14-Nov-2016
8:59:26 AM

On 14/11/2016 ajfclark wrote:
>What happens if that cam pops? Will it pull the upward facing stacked nut
>out?

It might. Probably not a good idea to clip it like that. The 3 or 4 times I've used stacked nuts I've been scared enough to weld them into place and wouldn't bother clipping the non-loaded nut into anything. If it's going to fall out of it's own accord then the placement is useless anyway.

I'd be with ODH on this: if there's a reachable tree I'd be going for that rather than setting a marginal anchor.

ajfclark

14-Nov-2016
9:52:14 AM

On 14/11/2016 kieranl wrote:
>The 3 or 4 times I've used stacked nuts I've been scared enough to weld them into place and wouldn't bother clipping the non-loaded nut into anything. If it's going to fall out of it's own accord then the placement is useless anyway.

I've only done it a couple of times too, but I usually clip a draw between the two stacked nuts, slack, just as a retainer so my second doesn't drop anything when pulling the gear out. I'd also usually stack the nuts with the full faces together so the curves match properly, more like this:

[Mods: Can you correct the thread title please? ]

ajfclark

14-Nov-2016
10:25:15 AM

This has been discussed before: http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&ForumID=6&MessageID=26060&Replies=24

Drake

14-Nov-2016
11:01:24 AM

I changed the title to "stacked" rather than opposed nuts to appease the pedantry. Strictly speaking I oppose such opposition to "opposed", but I've learned to adjust my vocabulary in this foreign land.

Drake

14-Nov-2016
11:02:24 AM

>>> I'd also usually stack the nuts with the full faces together so the curves match properly, more like this:

Yep I agree, but I didn't have the right gear remaining.

Drake

14-Nov-2016
7:13:44 PM

>>> What happens if that cam pops? Will it pull the upward facing stacked nut out?

Yeah that's true, I see what you folks mean. Perhaps I should not have clipped the nut in (or I should have used a longer keeper sling, clipped to the master point).

Although if that cam pops, I've got bigger issues. That's the highest piece, furthest from the master point. It's only going to take a substantial load if most of the rest of the anchor fails.

Drake

14-Nov-2016
7:14:59 PM

>>> I feel like a better equalisation method for your gear would be to keep climbing up to the huge tree on top of pitch 3

FYI, there are now two bolts with fixed hangers just left of the topout. I'm not sure why they are there, given the big tree, but they are.

IdratherbeclimbingM9

14-Nov-2016
8:23:18 PM

On 14/11/2016 Drake wrote:
>>>>On 14/11/2016 ajfclark wrote:
>>>> What happens if that cam pops? Will it pull the upward facing stacked
>nut out?
>
>Yeah that's true, I see what you folks mean. Perhaps I should not have
>clipped the nut in (or I should have used a longer keeper sling, clipped
>to the master point).
>
>Although if that cam pops, I've got bigger issues. That's the highest
>piece, furthest from the master point. It's only going to take a substantial
>load if most of the rest of the anchor fails.

Hmm.
It should share the loading if the whole belay was equalised correctly in direction of anticipated loading and without slack in the system.
Hard to tell from the photo supplied but that cam looks like an unusual placement.
It appears to be placed on its side, and under downward loading would likely try to rotate.
Also, although the lobes are well compressed, one of them on the right doesn't appear to have much contact with rock...

Re the stacked nuts, I reckon they'd be fine as long as the left side-placed one was not clipped to the upper cam, and loading wasn't likely to come from changing directions, eg in a pendulum style of fall where load angle changes and tries to rotate placements out of their optimum load bearing alignment.

Also hard to tell from the photo, but the top right nut looks only half engaged on its left hand side...

All together I reckon the belay (to the extent pictured), isn't too flash; and if some of those components failed (for whatever reason), then complete cascade failure of the belay would be a strong possibility.

Having said the above, most people will likely find that during a long climbing career involving trad adventure style, that they will at some time inevitably end up relying on a 'less than adequate'* belay during it.

Belays only need be adequate to the loads they may have to face and theoretically anything more substantial is time consuming overkill, though the extra effort can also give great peace of mind!

(* At some points in my climbing career I've built some belays from truly marginal pieces of protection that have subsequently held falls, this primarily due to them being well equalised matrix's; and thinking outside the box, as you have done on this occasion, is a skill worth investing in).

One Day Hero

14-Nov-2016
11:11:18 PM

On 14/11/2016 Drake wrote:
>FYI, there are now two bolts with fixed hangers just left of the topout.

No there aren't ;)

Keenas

15-Nov-2016
12:59:14 PM

Great! Did you move them to the belay on top of pitch 2 then? Just kicked them down,, he he he

Two weeks ago, one of those hangers was buried under 50mm of sand, had to dig it out after I assumed bolts came in pairs, and sure enough, there it was. Well camouflaged.

There are 16 messages in this topic.