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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

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Accident Register (www.accidentregister.org)

Romfrantic

3-Feb-2006
12:10:56 PM

This is somehow related to that previous topic (now closed) on the recent Mt York incident. I've been exchaging emails with Lucas Trihey, who managed the Accident Register site (recently gone offline). Here is one of his replies made to the OzCanyons mailing list, which may also be relevant here - if anybody here has any leads or ideas to help revive the initiative, please get in touch! PM or email. Thank you!

~
The Accident Register site is not dead yet although we are experiencing some problems with getting cash for the domain name, web hosting and to cover the cost of calls to check and verify accident reports (accuracy is a major priority for the site).

We need about $500 per year minimum for this and so far have mostly been funding it out of our own pockets but we are finding we can't justify this any longer. The three of us who founded the site (Lucas Trihey, Ian Brown and Richard Delaney) still believe there is a valid need for the site (and gauging by the reaction to the loss in some quarters - ski.com.au etc) it seems others think so too. So we are reluctant to let the idea drop. We believe that the site has definite educational benefits for people at all levels (novice to expert) in various adventure activities.

Carolina (who I think is a member here) is helping out by trying to coordinate a response and to look at getting some funding. If anyone has useful contacts with organisations that may be able to come up with some funding please contact Carolina.

Thanks for the interest in the site!

Lucas
~

nmonteith

3-Feb-2006
12:22:45 PM

I pay less than $50 a year for my domain name and 40mb of space. Not sure why you would be paying
$500?!

Romfrantic

3-Feb-2006
12:28:01 PM

Neil, the process of data gathering (phonecalls, faxes, etc), verification of facts and liaison with SES and Police and other authorities involved, as well as maintaining and updating the register itself (hours) - does involve time and money. The cost is to cover more than just the domain name registration. Perhaps you'd like to contact Lucas personally, to get more information on the costs involved and the breakdown of those costs estimates, I don't have those details myself.

Richard

3-Feb-2006
1:21:00 PM

>the process of data gathering (phonecalls, faxes, etc), verification
>of facts and liaison with SES and Police and other authorities involved,
>as well as maintaining and updating the register itself (hours) - does
>involve time and money. i

is that the only way a register could be done? isn't wikipedia run by user input. I recokn their's a fair chance that if you just let users enter data, the gross errors, as in the case of the Mt York accidnet, would soon get corrected....

Prehaps worth a try ?

Romfrantic

3-Feb-2006
1:29:58 PM

On 3/02/2006 Richard wrote:
>
>is that the only way a register could be done?

There could be many ways I suppose, that is just the way the previous accident register operated.

> isn't wikipedia run by
>user input. I recokn their's a fair chance that if you just let users enter
>data, the gross errors, as in the case of the Mt York accidnet, would soon
>get corrected....
>
>Prehaps worth a try ?

I'll raise it, we'll see. Although I suspect there might be issues from a 'validation of facts' point of view, especially when relying on info from the authorities v's other observants/witnesses etc - but will pass the suggestion on.

IdratherbeclimbingM9

3-Feb-2006
1:38:55 PM

Sounds like extra work for the mods in having to clear up erroneous posts?

anthonyk

3-Feb-2006
2:54:19 PM

people would be more likely to report accidents if it was more easily accessible, i'm sure a lot of people who have moderate accidents would be reluctant to call people up to report what happened but if it was an easy action like entering something on a web site it would be used a lot more frequently.

you could easily have mods going around verifying whatever they think is worth following up, and you could easily see which posts are just user entered and which have been verified. if there's random/unnecessary/dubious posts they would be marked unverified or debunked or whatever, the reader can interpret for themselves.

i think it would make the moderators jobs a whole lot easier because the content would be a lot more forthcoming and they simply have to look through and chase up whatever is relevant.

anthonyk

3-Feb-2006
2:58:34 PM

although perhaps something worth considering is how much people want rumour and hearsay being posted around about very sensitive events, sometimes its good when a moderator will choose what is relevant to be shared and say it in an appropriate way.

Romfrantic

3-Feb-2006
3:39:08 PM

On 3/02/2006 anthonyk wrote:
>although perhaps something worth considering is how much people want rumour
>and hearsay being posted around about very sensitive events, sometimes
>its good when a moderator will choose what is relevant to be shared and
>say it in an appropriate way.

Yes, that is a valid point - I'm sure Lucas would pay very careful attention to the verification and reporting of events, his previous AR used to be like that.

vwills

3-Feb-2006
7:31:36 PM

I dont think that an internet forum is the proper way to reliably investigate climbing fatalities and injuries. Self report is unreliable.
Tapping into the the state health systems to maintain a prospective accident register where all fatalities (picked up from deaths reported to the coroner) and all major injuries (picked up from attendance at emergency departments)are flagged and can then be investigated in a timely and sensitive fashion would be the way to collect meaningful data.
I am sure accidents related to climbing are grossly under reported, even in countries where there is a history of good accident reporting and a strong and unified climbing culture.
Reports on forums like this and crag X are insensitive and voyeuristic.

Romfrantic

3-Feb-2006
7:52:09 PM

On 3/02/2006 vwills wrote:
>I dont think that an internet forum is the proper way to reliably investigate
>climbing fatalities and injuries. Self report is unreliable.
>Tapping into the the state health systems to maintain a prospective accident
>register where all fatalities (picked up from deaths reported to the coroner)
>and all major injuries (picked up from attendance at emergency departments)are
>flagged and can then be investigated in a timely and sensitive fashion
>would be the way to collect meaningful data.

I actually did raise this question once (not here though), regarding access to records kept by the authorities, and issues with coroner investigations etc....but wasn't sure if they gave those sorts of details to the public, never got an answer either - I gather from your post, that it is possible?

On 3/02/2006 vwills wrote:
>I am sure accidents related to climbing are grossly under reported, even
>in countries where there is a history of good accident reporting and a
>strong and unified climbing culture.

Yes, that's true....and that's not even counting 'near misses'.

>Reports on forums like this and crag X are insensitive and voyeuristic.

Exactly right - and media reports, often with dubious reporting and fact-verification, makes matters worse. Hence, why Lucas' database (in conjuction with Blue Mts Climber's Rescue et al) was a useful resource.

wombly

3-Feb-2006
9:00:24 PM

>Reports on forums like this and crag X are insensitive and voyeuristic.

I would probably agree that they are, but seeing (at least some) details of accidents has made me sit back a little in the last few weeks and question what and why i am climbing. Its never going to be easy for the families of those involved in an accident to see these things spread out in their gory (and possibly inaccurate) detail, but doing it might help the community to lower the accident rate overall.

hatman

4-Feb-2006
7:43:43 AM

well so far all anyone has done is push hot air around!

woodieworx.com will donate $100

get in touch with ken

woodieworx@woodieworx.com

If any one can match it I will throw in another $50

Romfrantic

4-Feb-2006
12:34:37 PM

On 4/02/2006 hatman wrote:
>well so far all anyone has done is push hot air around!
>
>woodieworx.com will donate $100
>
>get in touch with ken
>
>woodieworx@woodieworx.com
>
>If any one can match it I will throw in another $50

That's very nice and proactive of you Ken, will pass on details (likewise, all comments made here so far).

I think it is healthy to debate and "think" about these issues, I'm not sure that it is 'hot air' being generated for the sake of it, but rather 'awareness' (oh, maybe am being naïve?). Also, I'm sure many individuals (including myself) would be willing to support the cause, however for long-term success it takes more than just a one-off donation - and I think that is the sort of support the AR is after as well.

kieranl

4-Feb-2006
2:37:44 PM

On 3/02/2006 vwills wrote:
>Tapping into the the state health systems to maintain a prospective accident
>register where all fatalities (picked up from deaths reported to the coroner)
>and all major injuries (picked up from attendance at emergency departments)are
>flagged and can then be investigated in a timely and sensitive fashion
>would be the way to collect meaningful data.
I've done a fair bit of work with the Victorian emergency data reporting data system and it is just too insensitive to pick up the sort of detail we would be interested in. Typically all you would get out of is that the injury was due to a fall during recreation.
Open forums are useful but feature too much speculation and repeating of hearsay and that can be painful to those who know the people involved.
A strongly moderated forum for accidents would be useful.

Hatman

4-Feb-2006
9:42:26 PM

nah it always hot air on chockstone!

dunno if I should donate the $ now, its bad luck! Today I had my closest call ever.

I had been trying my project at nerriga (NSW) gave up and Ros had a wander up it on top rope to were i had fallen off. Another climber belayed and I sat below. Next thing a football sized rock (formaly a hold) departed from the wall (ros is 5 kg heavier than me!!) took skin off Ros's leg and hit my hand then ankle.

The position In which I sat ment that my legs were spread and I was hunched over. If I had my legs together both would be broken, and had I been hunched over taking off my shoes, like a few seconds previously I would be dead! Instead of just hurting.

Wear a helmet at all times. especialy when cleaning a new route!

anthonyk

7-Feb-2006
1:30:57 PM

On 3/02/2006 vwills wrote:
>Reports on forums like this and crag X are insensitive and voyeuristic.

its pretty important to hear about what happens, i think thats more important than concerns about voyeurism and whatever. if you want to climb you need to know the reality of what you're doing, it doesn't help to just climb in ignorance of what can happen and pick up vague scraps of details from the media. it doesn't tell you much to hear a vague report about some climber having a bad accident somewhere, but it is hugely informative to hear that a climber with such and such experience had been climbing a particular route and what led up to them having the accident.

hearing about people having accidents on routes you climb / have climbed gives more reality to accidents that happen
hearing about experienced, responsible people having accidents or misfortunes makes you aware of what risks you are facing
the details are so important in understanding whats going on so you don't just have some perception of things happening to "other people" because they've "done something wrong". its not always like that.

understanding the reality of what is going on helps you make better judgements and gives you a better understanding of what you are doing. i also think being aware of what the risks are and accepting them in an informed way gives you a kind of freedom as well.

vwills

8-Feb-2006
6:27:46 PM

I couldnt agree more anthonyk, but I do not see any reliably researched reports appearing on most internet forums. They are more like Chinese Whispers.

There are 2 major problems that need to be addressed if you want reliable and meaningful reports:
1. Identification of all relevant incidents
2. Investigation of those incidents by the right group of people whose attributes might include: solid climbing experience, good interviewing skills, no preconceived ideas, ability to maintain confidentiality and who represent a credible organisation and who present their results in a meaningful way, whether this be as illustrative case reports or as series of accidents related to a common cause.

Romfrantic

17-Feb-2006
10:35:18 AM

An update:

~
Hi all, the Accident Register is back online at its new home at www.accidentregister.info
We are currently weighing up ways of keeping the site going so please bare with us as we sort out finances and some administrative hurdles.
We also have news of some developments with the site which will expand the coverage and we hope to make an announcement soon with more details.
We are still interested in gathering information on possible sources of funding so please drop a line to me or Carolina if you can help in that area.
Cheers,
Lucas
www.accidentregister.info

There are 19 messages in this topic.