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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

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Kyle Dempster & Scott Adamson Missing on Ogre 2

phillipivan
1-Sep-2016
10:02:46 AM
Shit news.

See here:
Climbing.com article.

Rescue funding campaign:
Here.
citationx
1-Sep-2016
2:39:12 PM
Love this new internet world!
Forget personal responsibility and paying for your own insurance when doing something dangerous, get others to pay if the sht hits the fan!

trog
1-Sep-2016
2:54:36 PM
On 1/09/2016 citationx wrote:
>Love this new internet world!
>Forget personal responsibility and paying for your own insurance when
>doing something dangerous, get others to pay if the sht hits the fan!

Well they didn't call for a rescue... and from the linked article:

>>>

The pair have global rescue insurance, but their families are paying for the costs upfront. A Gofundme page has been established to help with the payments. Donate to the rescue effort here.

Last year, Dempster and Adamson attempted the unclimbed North Face of the Ogre II. Near the summit, Adamson took a 100-foot fall, breaking his leg at 6,600 meters. The pair descended. A few rappels from the base, they ripped a v-thread anchor, sliding 300 feet on the Choktoi glacier. Miraculously, they walked away from the second fall without further injury.
<<<

but hey, don't let that stop your rant

phillipivan
1-Sep-2016
3:22:03 PM
Trog, your response was considerably more polite and measured than mine would have been.
damo666
1-Sep-2016
3:44:54 PM
On 1/09/2016 phillipivan wrote:
>Trog, your response was considerably more polite and measured than mine
>would have been.
>

+1

rodw
1-Sep-2016
7:45:08 PM
I agree your being tool citationx, grow up.

gnaguts
1-Sep-2016
8:53:14 PM
On 1/09/2016 citationx wrote:
>Love this new internet world!
>Forget personal responsibility and paying for your own insurance when
>doing something dangerous, get others to pay if the sht hits the fan!

Good 1 citx. I reckon Ur right on the nail head.
I'm sure the insurance company will appreciate the help an pay out all the peeps who contribute up front.

I hope the blokes get found in good order and give em full marks 4 trying an awesome objective.

ajfclark
4-Sep-2016
8:28:22 AM
Via BD's FB page:
It is with sadness and a heavy heart that we post the following update regarding the search efforts on the Ogre II for Black Diamond ambassador Kyle Dempster and his climbing partner Scott Adamson. The hearts of everyone at Black Diamond go out to the families of Kyle and Scott.
Saturday, September 3, 2016
Salt Lake City, Utah
This update is for Saturday, September 3rd and is provided in order to keep everyone informed of the efforts being made to locate Kyle Dempster and Scott Adamson. NOTE: All dates and times referenced are for Pakistan Standard Time.
Early on Saturday, September 3rd, two Pakistani military helicopters left Skardu in clear weather. They landed at basecamp on the Choktoi Glacier and picked up climber Thomas Huber (Austria) who would assist as an observer/spotter. An exhaustive and close-proximity initial search of the north face of the Ogre 2 (where Kyle and Scott were last seen on August 22), the northeast ridge (their planned descent route), and the glacial basin between the Ogre 2 and Ogre 1, yielded no sign of the pair. After refueling, the two helicopters made a second sweep of all sides of the mountain, from an even higher altitude, and again found no sign of Kyle and Scott. In light of those extensive yet unsuccessful efforts, the search team and knowledgeable observers in Pakistan, the US, and Europe, assessed that there remained a very slim chance that any evidence of their passage would be revealed in subsequent sweeps of the mountain.
Given the time that has elapsed and the nearly continuous stormy weather since they were last seen, and the substantial risks that such high-altitude missions entail, Kyle and Scott’s families have made the extremely difficult decision to end the search efforts.
We owe a huge amount of gratitude to the Pakistan government for scrambling all of their available assets and their commitment to finding Scott and Kyle. Their support, and that of Global Rescue, has been invaluable. Additionally Kyle and Scott’s families are deeply grateful for the assistance provided by the Pakistan Embassy in Switzerland the US Embassy in Pakistan, and numerous other individuals and organizations worldwide. We will acknowledge and thank each of them publicly and privately in the coming days.
That is the update for Saturday, September 3rd. We again ask that everyone please provide privacy to Kyle and Scott’s families. Any questions or media inquires should be directed to Jonathan Thesenga at jonathan.thesenga@bdel.com.

Sabu
4-Sep-2016
11:13:42 AM
Ah damn that's terrible news.

phillipivan
6-Sep-2016
8:53:37 PM
Yes, it's tremendously shit. Kyle wrote some good stuff for The Alpinist. His TR on climbing Mt Edgar with Bruce Normand is worth a read.
Damo666
8-Sep-2016
2:12:36 PM
"The climbers, through their memberships with the American Alpine Club (AAC), had what is billed by the AAC as “$12,500 of rescue coverage.” That number breaks down to $7,500 of coverage with Global Rescue...This situation, however, turned out to be different. It wasn’t a rescue that was being requested, but a search. Although Global Rescue could technically arrange a search, it wouldn’t be covered through the climbers’ rescue-coverage plan. In addition, searches are far costlier because they often require more time, helicopter support, and manpower. The GoFundMe page got started because there were so many upfront costs..."

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/activities/climbing/crowdfund-rescue-for-climbers/

phillipivan
9-Sep-2016
2:23:52 PM
Nice obit for Kyle here.

gnaguts
9-Sep-2016
3:21:22 PM
On 9/09/2016 phillipivan wrote:
>Nice obit

Call me an optimist but i reckon that's a bit early.
Afta they find the bodies then i'll believe, coz stranger thingz have happnd.
Wendy
10-Sep-2016
12:08:28 AM
On 1/09/2016 citationx wrote:
>Love this new internet world!
>Forget personal responsibility and paying for your own insurance when
>doing something dangerous, get others to pay if the sht hits the fan!

I see it's not the popular response at the moment, but I have some sympathy for this. I find it strange that we live in a world where the only options for all sorts of disaster response seem to be insurance or begging. It's like a uberindividualist world where we are all supposed to take responsibility for ourselves, but most people don't, either from lack of awareness, lack of money or lack of options. Hence the end result is begging and the internet allows that on an unprecedented scale. I don't think it is a sustainable system when all sort of health, accidents and natural disasters have to be dealt with by begging. Take the assorted large scale fires and floods in the past few years. Private insurance didn't cover a bunch of it, or people hadn't been aware of or able to afford insurance and in the end, the government hands out some funds and charities start massive campaigns begging for funds to cover the gap. In the end, how long can begging continue to provide funds for these sort of things?

I expect these guys thought they were covered and maybe they didn't read the fine print or consider the realistic costs, but in the end, they probably wouldn't have been able to get insurance that would cover this sort of thing to the extent required, because the world of insurance thinks it's fine to insure driving, white water rafting, all sort of high risk activities including sitting on the couch drinking, smoking and eating fatty food, but not climbing. As long as we rely on for profit private companies with little awareness of the real risks to provide health, life and rescue insurance, we are going to face issues such as this.

I'm currently climbing in the US and I'm relying the Austrian Alpine Club insurance. I just checked that they cover search as well as rescue, and they do. Up to 25000 euro. Not that I figure there'll be much searching to do where I am. However, I am aware that they have a 10000 euro limit on overseas medical treatment. If something happens, and I end up blowing that out, should I start a crowdfunding campaign to cover it? What would happen if everybody who came up with unexpected expenses started crowdfunding? Where do everyday, unknown people doing unremarkable things who need assistance stand when it comes to this sort of begging?

I don't really know the answers to these problems, especially in poor nations such as Pakistan who have an awful lot of stuff to do for their own people before covering visitors from far wealthier nations. But I do think there is something to be said for government regulated, reasonably priced compulsory coverage that is guaranteed to cover potential events that are now left in this grey, often uncovered area labelled individual responsibility. So people who buy or rent in fire or flood risk areas pay a compulsory levy on property and possessions but are guaranteed coverage. People who smoke or other massive lifestyle risks pay a compulsory levy on health and life coverage, but are guaranteed coverage. And people who participate in various sports get a compulsory levy reflective of real risk balanced against health benefits and are guaranteed coverage. In the end, the people and the government end up forking out for these things, so we may as well plan to cover them in their entirety and take the for profit insurance industry out of the equation.

trog
10-Sep-2016
3:31:00 AM
Sad news from Pakistan.

I only know Kyle and Scott from videos and articles - but they seemed to have a handle on risk.
I doubt they expected a rescue, but I'm just a random on the internet, with no real insight about them.

Their families? (http://dirtbagdiaries.com/mothers-hardest/ http://kyledempster.blogspot.ca/2008/11/mothers-have-it-hardest.html )

Who could begrudge their family and friends for organising a rescue? and asking for help?

I think the situation is different for sponsored athletes - and I hope BD, OR etc came to the party with significant contributions. But also people have more exposure to well known climbers (or simply climbers that people hear about having attempted something out of the ordinary). People who have been entertained by their stories or inspired by their line are more likely to reach into their own pockets to help...

I wouldn't expect much of a response for a gofundme as a regular climbing punter like myself, puntering around on fairly trade routes, even if they feel adventurous to me. I can live with that.

As for climbing in the states? Yeah I f'king hate the idea of being sick/injured in the US - even with insurance it seems like a real shtfight. So far so good. And I want to live in countries that have socialised health care at least some degree


PS Love this internet world! Hang sht on people you don't know, about something you didn't read or comprehend properly, in a durable, searchable medium then abandon the conversation.
dalai
10-Sep-2016
1:05:23 PM
On 10/09/2016 Wendy wrote:
>I don't think it is a sustainable system when all sort of health, accidents and natural disasters have to be dealt with by begging.

Calling it begging is touching a very recent raw nerve Wendy - having held my wife as she took her last breath under 6 weeks ago!

Having the highest private health cover or insurance doesn't necessarily cover everything, especially in our case where Paulette had a rare cancer and the only remaining treatment is not on the PBS for anything except melanoma! We got a reduced rate on the drug, but even then was over $1000 per week and if it had worked would have been needed to be taken indefinitely.

I wasn't personally comfortable asking for support and was already looking at accessing our Super and selling the house. But a musician friend of my wife organised a fund raising concert and also set up a donation option for those who couldn't make the concert. I gratefully accepted the funds - explained by a person who donated when I mentioned my reluctance to take donations was that those who donated did so because they loved Paulette and felt helpless otherwise and this way they could support her.

What value do you put on someone's life - deny them treatment / support because they can't afford it? People will quickly decide if they want to contribute to a request for funds and if they do good on them! Do you think 25000 euro will go far for a rescue? Or 10000 euro for medical? My simple collarbone operation cost over $7000! Any decent medical support especially in the States your 10000 will be gone in a flash...
Wendy
10-Sep-2016
8:55:29 PM
Imsorry for hitting such a personally painful issue Dalai. My problem isn't asking for money per se (except maybe when people are wilfully irresponsible or stupid). It's with a system that fails to provide an adequate safety net for people so that they have to. The health insurance thing particularly gets to me as it only covers a tiny portion of costs leaving Medicare and the patient to pick up the rest. There's also a bunch of issues around pharmaceutical companies focussing on the development of profitable drugs over needed drugs and for reasons I can't remember they cost more in Australia than almost anywhere else. Brings little socialist at heart Im all for the provision and regulation of services by the govt so that meetings needs not profit making is at the centre of services. And also because in the end if everyone has to ask for money for these things we are rapidly going to run out of money to give. It's a one of kind of answer and it can't address the real problems of health funding.

I aware of the limitations to my insurance but I figure I'm not doing anything I don't do at home 3 days a week without drama. And there is unlimited repatriation covered so anything that leaves you fit to travel they just send you home for treatment. The red and the creek aren't difficult to access areas and I have emergencies funds at home plus normal insurance. But again, in a fairer world, we could have publicly provided insurance based on real rather than imagined risk and climbing wouldn't be an issue.

trog
25-Jan-2017
11:35:29 AM
The gofundme page has an update on the rescue planning. Doesn't include figures for what it cost to get the choppers off the ground but it does sound like the appeal helped things get moving.

There are 18 messages in this topic.

 

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