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Chockstone Photography
Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 21
Author
2013 30m fall - sublime point
Flashyrox
1-Jan-2016
9:20:19 AM
Hi guys,

This happened a while ago, was wondering if anyone had info on how this guy managed to fall 30m when being belayed from above ? If the belayer wasn't pulling in the slack then the climber would have noticed it.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/helmetcam-captures-30m-horror-fall-of-climber-in-the-blue-mountains-but-he-lives-to-do-the-voiceover/story-fni0cx4q-1226755171688

ajfclark
1-Jan-2016
9:23:59 AM
There's a thread on here somewere from memory. I'll see if I can find it in a few minutes.

Andrew_M
1-Jan-2016
9:25:58 AM
link to thread

http://www.chockstone.org/forum/Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=5&MessageID=10536&Replies=137&PagePos=0&Sort=Hits

ajfclark
1-Jan-2016
9:27:46 AM
Searching google for site:chockstone.org ipledg pulls up this thread:

http://www.chockstone.org/forum/Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=5&MessageID=10536&PagePos=1&Sort=Hits&Replies=138
Flashyrox
1-Jan-2016
11:19:28 AM
Thanks guys !
mikllaw
1-Jan-2016
7:30:29 PM
Top belaying on an ATC can be tricky, and bad for the second

Zarb
2-Jan-2016
11:17:37 AM
Mr Law, are we referring to vanilla ATC's here, or ATC-Guides? I find top belaying on Guides tricky only because it's a bit of faff to lower someone if they fall off a traverse or need to get down for whatever reason.

As for vanilla ATC's, I don't particularly like them. I think I still only use them for gym leading and only when I'm belaying someone who weighs a lot less than me (most climbers).
mikllaw
2-Jan-2016
5:30:32 PM
an atc is an ATC, not a Guide mode device.
Guide mode devices are tricky, easy to release, but then you have no friction and many people have been dropped like that.

ATCs are simple and versatile, belaying is difficult. I still haven't found a good device

regdog55
4-Jan-2016
5:59:33 PM
clickup?
dan_b
5-Jan-2016
12:10:52 AM
On 2/01/2016 mikllaw wrote:
>Guide mode devices are tricky, easy to release, but then you have no friction
>and many people have been dropped like that.

My understanding was that this was only an issue (being dropped suddenly) when the belay was hanging/semi-hanging and therefore not possible for the belayer to get to the opposite side of the device (ie the side that of the device where the rope loops around the carabiner, not where the rope enters/exits the device)? In this situation I thought this could be over come by redirecting the belay rope above the device (+/- prussik).

Please correct me if I have misunderstood this, as I was intending to start using one.

ajfclark
5-Jan-2016
7:25:07 AM
The issue I've seen is people redirecting the sling used to unlock the device, but not the climbing rope. Then, as they sit on the sling to unlock the device, they can end up in front of the device.

If you redirect neither, it's generally ok (you have to be behind the device to unlock).

If you redirect both, I find it's a bit nicer to manage.

If you look at the current instructions, BD now recommend using a munter:



I guess they've done that so that it doesn't matter where things end up relative to each other when the device is unlocked.

[edit: this could probably go off into it's own thread. ]

Macciza
5-Jan-2016
12:14:48 PM
Backing up your belay device with a friction knot??
But surely you wouldn't just hold it with your hand ...
I reckon a good old waist belay into the munter before going anywhere near that guide mode thingy, just to be safe ....
widewetandslippery
5-Jan-2016
12:56:02 PM
That looks bloody complicated. I thought these autolock set ups were meant to make life simple. How does this all work if the belay is only one peice/belayer wedged in crack.

Keenas
5-Jan-2016
1:04:20 PM
I've tried out the DMM Pivot and the Mammut ones in guide mode, both with double ropes, they lock and unlock nicely, never felt like they were going to run. When you have two people seconding on a rope each, and one falls or needs lowering, then there are problems...
mikllaw
5-Jan-2016
2:35:41 PM
On 5/01/2016 dan_b wrote:

>My understanding was that this was only an issue (being dropped suddenly)
>when the belay was hanging/semi-hanging and therefore not possible for
>the belayer to get to the opposite side of the device

They are hard to use without practice, and the Petzl and BD ones go to a no-friction mode rapidly. Practice
dan_b
5-Jan-2016
5:44:53 PM
On 5/01/2016 widewetandslippery wrote:
>That looks bloody complicated. I thought these autolock set ups were meant
>to make life simple. How does this all work if the belay is only one peice/belayer
>wedged in crack.

Can be used in standard ATC mode; cue the usual debate re: auto/assisted braking devices and sketchy anchors?
dan_b
5-Jan-2016
5:46:54 PM
On 5/01/2016 mikllaw wrote:
>Practice

Thans mikl. Have been
One Day Hero
5-Jan-2016
8:19:15 PM
I think reversos are frigging awesome. They change climbing in a party of three from an unpleasant clusterfuch into something I don't mind doing regularly. With all the jabbering about how tricky it is to lower a second, it's worth noting that I've only had to do that once in the fifteen years I've been using the things (one of my seconders spat the dummy on the steep top pitch of Must Go Down to the Sea Again.......there's a slight chance I might have lied about the grade).

How often do you really climb shit where the second needs to be lowered?
dan_b
5-Jan-2016
9:37:41 PM
>How often do you really climb shit where the second needs to be lowered?

My thoughts exactly - and then it seems only a bit more cumbersome in certain belay setups.

Thanks all

ajfclark
6-Jan-2016
7:38:15 AM
On 5/01/2016 Macciza wrote:
>Backing up your belay device with a friction knot??
>But surely you wouldn't just hold it with your hand ...
>I reckon a good old waist belay into the munter before going anywhere
>near that guide mode thingy, just to be safe ....

With the original guide, the pivot point is quite sudden and if you're standing in front of the device without redirecting the brake line, the friction through the device drops to almost nothing very suddenly when unlocking. Depending on the belay setup, it can be fiddly to get the redirect position right and if it's too close, when the device pivots, it goes from being a redirect to just being a biner flapping in the breeze.

While their method does look overly complicated (and I think in some cases it'd have so much friction you'd struggle to lower anyway), think there's some benefits. Firstly, the munter can lower in its own right so if the amount of friction through the unlocked device is too low, you end up just lowering on the munter which is fine. If there was too much friction it'd be trivial to drop out a loop of the munter and make it just a simple redirect.

I also think their setup would work regardless of the relative position of the device vs the munter and whether the unlock sling was redirected or not (though I haven't played with it to try). If that's the case, it gains effective simplicity because there's no need to teach multiple different setups which could possibly be confused and dangerously mixed (like the guy with his abseil backup above the device attached to his leg loop).

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There are 21 messages in this topic.

 

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