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Should we stop placing carrots? 12-Feb-2009 At 8:16:02 AM jgoding

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Hi,

Fizz - re the HILTI 10 year warranty keep in mind that the reason it's only 10 years and not longer is that this is the standard minimum for many commercial building contracts. What is the advantage to a business like HILTI to offer a greater warranty than the minimum? They are simply reducing their risk of being sued.

Many bridges, buildings and various other structures (big signs hanging off the side of tall buildings) are built using this product. They are not about to fall down just because the warranty is specified as being 10 years.

My understanding is that this product is designed to be permanent - i.e. 50-100 years. I do understand your concern but suggest it's paranoia rather than realism.

I'd suggest you speak to some of the many structural engineers at HILTI to get better informed rather than seek the advice of other climbers who do not have commercial training/qualifications to give authoritative advice on this matter.

I'd suggest it's time to marry the commercial building education that's out there with the climbing community. There is HEAPS of great testing info by various companies like HILTI, RAMSET, POWERS (to name a few) who are the ones to be directing your queries to re their product's performance. In my experience most of the glue failures are to do with poor technique, not poor product (although that does happen - but it's identified because a test sample is always part of good technique - so it's picked up and can hence be rectified).

I'd suggest the focus should be on replacing the remaining MILD STEEL bash in carrots with stainless steel (G304 for inland areas and G316 for coastal areas) using suitable modern injection glue methods, ensuring a test sample of the glue is taken and that the hole is drilled and cleaned in a suitable manner.

I support well placed glue in machine bolts that are suitably deep to match the rock hardness (I generally use G304 M10 x 90mm minimum but use 75mm embedment depth in very hard rock such as Buffalo and very limited areas in the Grampians).

I would qualify that by saying that the only reason to place this kind of fixed protection IMHO is that it is in an area that is highly visible to the general public (not the climbing community). Many climbing areas are shared with other user groups and out of respect to them we should continue to consider the most aesthetically pleasing result (so long as it is structurally sound).

In areas where the cliff is not in a shared user environment I support fixed hangers, U bolts or Ring bolts (on the proviso that they are properly placed of course!). Painting them to reduce their visibility is always preferable in my opinion. Personally I think P's or U's are less aesthetically obtrusive than fixed hangers as their general design seems to blend in better when suitably painted.