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Advice on lowering from a bolt..

SHANESHAW

9-Sep-2007
11:12:43 PM

I have a question... I was trad climbing with a partner today and we left it a bit late to do a climb and it was getting dark. In the end the best and quickest way to get down was to climb sideways for a little which was easy and put a bolt hanger onto a bolt and clipped in 2 draws reversed and I lowered my partner down and then when he got to the bottom He lowered me. Becasue of this we left the hanger and 2 draws on the wall. Now in this type of situation were we correct in doing what we did. The bolt was new and was a bomber (glued in bolt). My partner wanted to use just 1 draw but I decided on 2 was this correct any advise guys ?????

thanks


Macciza

9-Sep-2007
11:44:17 PM

Sounds like overkill to me - you probably could have left just the plate and a single biner - it seems
pretty weird to leave two draws (4 biners) behind for no good reason - nothing was likely to fail.

I would have put a wire on the bolt, one biner, doubled the rope, and probably simul-rapped, then you just
flick the wire/biner setup of the bolt and left nothing - it's what Zac and I would have, and have done.
That's how we used to do it quite often in the good old days before rings ruined things . . .


dave h.

10-Sep-2007
12:14:16 AM

This leaves more gear than Macca's suggestion

If you have a prussik, or a loop of cord you are comfortable sacrificing and rapping on, use the cord to tie a slip-knot over the bolt. Thread the rope through the loop dangling below the slip-knot, make sure the knot is snugged nice and tight against the bolt, and abseil away.


Macciza

10-Sep-2007
12:25:01 AM

Ahh the old hero loop - works great on tall old proud carrots but can be sketchy on short new ones . .
They can also be interesting when left at the crux clip which makes a nice epic for the next climber . . .
Sometimes you can just hook the rope over a protruding horn of rock and call it good . . .

SHANESHAW

10-Sep-2007
2:54:07 AM

thanks for the info guys. We are fairly new climbers to outdoors, so the oiver kill with gear left was probably right. I am interested in a Simul-rap and how this set up works and how you manage to set it up ?

thanks


BundyBear

10-Sep-2007
6:57:57 AM

On 9/09/2007 Macciza wrote:
>Sounds like overkill to me - you probably could have left just the plate
>and a single biner - it seems
>pretty weird to leave two draws (4 biners) behind for no good reason -
>nothing was likely to fail.
>
>I would have put a wire on the bolt, one biner, doubled the rope, and
>probably simul-rapped, then you just
>flick the wire/biner setup of the bolt and left nothing - it's what Zac
>and I would have, and have done.
>That's how we used to do it quite often in the good old days before rings
>ruined things . . .

I would have just climbed out in the dark.

jgoding

10-Sep-2007
7:24:38 AM

I would have left one decent locking crab and a bolt plate myself. I feel much more comfortable using this method than trying any of the other methods suggested above...

Needless to say you'd better hope that top bolt was placed by someone who knew what they were doing! Luckily it looks like they did.


cruze

10-Sep-2007
8:52:02 AM

On 10/09/2007 jgoding wrote:
>I would have left one decent locking crab and a bolt plate myself. I feel
>much more comfortable using this method than trying any of the other methods
>suggested above...
>
>Needless to say you'd better hope that top bolt was placed by someone
>who knew what they were doing! Luckily it looks like they did.

Second that idea. Lowering off a single bolt... probably reserved for only the most desperate of situations.
1 bolt plate $6. 1 screw gate $15. Petrol getting to the crag $50. bet you wouldn't have thought twice about the petrol hey?

I am both surprised and not surprised at Macciza's suggestion. Sounds ridiculously dangerous - and why simulrap?

I would have placed a piece or two nearby to back up the single bolt (not equalised - just backed up - and yes if the bolt failed there would be a static load on the back up anchor). My partner would rap down (after all I got them into this mess didn't I?). Having established that the bolt is good for one person I would then remove the back up pieces and hope that I wouldn't be the proverbial 'straw'... Alternatively leave the gear in your climb and come back tomorrow and complete the thing.


dr_fil_good

10-Sep-2007
9:11:42 AM

in this situation you'd get some old school trad head saying that one piece of gear is never safe, a sport climber saying 'hero loop the bolt', and mountaineers just saying solo to the top in the dark.

I'd say you are best off doing what you feel comfortable with. No point in scaring the heebies out of yourself by stepping outside your comfort zone 'cause some guy on a forum said something or other. Two binas and a plate - $25 or less ... who cares if it's overkill. It's cheaper than getting pissed at the National in Nati.

widewetandslippery

10-Sep-2007
9:23:07 AM

I'm with the opened up wire but I'd rap seperately so the single bolt is only loaded by one person at once. As it was a newish glue in I wouldn't back it up but if it was a manky rusty shoelace growing carrrot I'd back it up for the first person and just go off the bolt for the last.


cruxmag

10-Sep-2007
9:59:38 AM

Bolt plate and screwgate. Simple. Back-it-up with nearby trad for the first person down, then remove this backup for the second guy down. People have died from single anchor failures - so don't get into the habit of rapping off single bolts to often. Good looking bolts do fail.


skink

10-Sep-2007
10:56:50 AM

How did you get two quickdraws into one bolt plate???

My opinion:

Your way of thinking was good (redundancy, backup), but the most uncertain link in the chain is almost always your connection to the rock, in this case a bolt. So that should've been your focus for backing up - the bolt, not the quickdraw.

To reduce the uncertainty around the integrity of the bolt: a good old fashioned outward jerk using the quickdraw and a bit of a bounce test (all while on belay from a bomber anchor).

By bounce test I mean: clip to the bolt with your cowstail, personal anchor system, or even the climbing rope (think clove hitch), and kinda slump heavily onto the bolt - no big drop, just dynamic enough to load the anchor up with more than bodyweight.

One of my climbing partners has this habit when he gets to the loweroffs on sport-routes, he clips into both anchors (or the mainpoint if the chains are already equalised), gives them a bit of a bounce test and only then commits to trusting them for rap or a lower. I think it is a good habit and try and remember to do so myself.

After this I'd be happy considering the bolt the only anchor for the last person down, but would still follow the suggestion of backing it up for the first (and heaviest) person, and if there's any doubt (even just a gut feel something isn't as good as you'd like) then leave some backup gear - you can always find something if you look (and think) hard enough.

Even if you have no trad gear or don't want to leave your favourite (now out of production) HB Offset - slings can loop flakes or chickenheads, be knotted to make a 'nut' for a constricting crack, or find a small rock and chockstone it in a crack. There's almost always something - you just need to look far and wide.

I like one quote I read somewhere regarding abseil anchors, something like: If there's any doubt, there's no doubt - back it up.

Additionally, I don't think lowering was the best option either - rapping smoothly and slowly (no movie style ninja raps please), I reckon is less load on the anchor than lowering your buddy, and being lowered.

widewetandslippery

10-Sep-2007
11:09:11 AM

The majority of you seem to live in a different economic universe to others. No way I would bail and leave a screw gate. I rarely have more than one and at most 2 on me for cragging. At most I would leave a leaver biner that I keep on my nut tool that I found on a ledge 50m up a 300m route. No great loss.

The lowering/rapping off a wire and then flipping it off works well and is SAFE as long as you don't swing around like a knob.

PS. I have had to abandon gear that costs many dollars because I was not god enough to do routes. I just don't like making a habbit of it.


GravityHound

10-Sep-2007
12:09:14 PM

On 10/09/2007 widewetandslippery wrote:
At most I would leave a leaver biner
>that I keep on my nut tool that I found on a ledge 50m up a 300m route.

sh!t. that idea makes my stomach churn. did the biner fall the 250 m from the top before it landed on the ledge. you need much much bigger balls than i have to trust something found in a place like that.


MrKyle

10-Sep-2007
12:11:58 PM

On carrots, using the wire is a good way to go if you are close to the ground.
However, I keep a small maillon rapide on the back of my harness whenever I'm climbing. Costs a couple of bucks and is perfect for bailing/rapping.


nmonteith

10-Sep-2007
12:20:48 PM

An interesting topic about bail biners...
http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&ForumID=1&MessageID=2217&Replies=1

SHANESHAW

10-Sep-2007
12:25:20 PM

On 10/09/2007 MrKyle wrote:
>On carrots, using the wire is a good way to go if you are close to the
>ground.
>However, I keep a small maillon rapide on the back of my harness whenever
>I'm climbing. Costs a couple of bucks and is perfect for bailing/rapping.

like the idea mate I think I will have some spares on me from now on.


ado_m

10-Sep-2007
12:29:53 PM

i second mr kyle malleons, at least if you are climbing sport.

SHANESHAW

10-Sep-2007
12:30:59 PM

On 10/09/2007 andesite wrote:
>How did you get two quickdraws into one bolt plate???
>
>My opinion:
>
>Your way of thinking was good (redundancy, backup), but the most uncertain
>link in the chain is almost always your connection to the rock, in this
>case a bolt. So that should've been your focus for backing up - the bolt,
>not the quickdraw.
>
>To reduce the uncertainty around the integrity of the bolt: a good old
>fashioned outward jerk using the quickdraw and a bit of a bounce test (all
>while on belay from a bomber anchor).
>
>By bounce test I mean: clip to the bolt with your cowstail, personal anchor
>system, or even the climbing rope (think clove hitch), and kinda slump
>heavily onto the bolt - no big drop, just dynamic enough to load the anchor
>up with more than bodyweight.
>
>One of my climbing partners has this habit when he gets to the loweroffs
>on sport-routes, he clips into both anchors (or the mainpoint if the chains
>are already equalised), gives them a bit of a bounce test and only then
>commits to trusting them for rap or a lower. I think it is a good habit
>and try and remember to do so myself.
>
>After this I'd be happy considering the bolt the only anchor for the last
>person down, but would still follow the suggestion of backing it up for
>the first (and heaviest) person, and if there's any doubt (even just a
>gut feel something isn't as good as you'd like) then leave some backup
>gear - you can always find something if you look (and think) hard enough.
>
>Even if you have no trad gear or don't want to leave your favourite (now
>out of production) HB Offset - slings can loop flakes or chickenheads,
>be knotted to make a 'nut' for a constricting crack, or find a small rock
>and chockstone it in a crack. There's almost always something - you just
>need to look far and wide.
>
>I like one quote I read somewhere regarding abseil anchors, something
>like: If there's any doubt, there's no doubt - back it up.
>
>Additionally, I don't think lowering was the best option either - rapping
>smoothly and slowly (no movie style ninja raps please), I reckon is less
>load on the anchor than lowering your buddy, and being lowered.

I like what you said mate, I suppose I could have used a bolt plate and a screw gate but I used the 2 draws because I didn't want one to fail so I used 2 and reversed them as the books say. The bolt was a glued in bolt and was a bomber anchor and I lowered my partner down slowly and with no jerking. The same when he lowered me . There was no jerking or little drops to put more pressure on the 1 bolt. Also no protection could be placed anywhere the bolt was on a climb that we travered to and lowered off. And climbing up it probably was not a option because it was too hard a climb... I appreciate the advise. At the end of the day I was comfortable when I was lowered and it only cost me 2 draws and a bolt plate. better then taking a tumble.


nmonteith

10-Sep-2007
12:47:48 PM

On 10/09/2007 SHANESHAW wrote:
>I like what you said mate, I suppose I could have used a bolt plate and
>a screw gate but I used the 2 draws because I didn't want one to fail so
>I used 2 and reversed them as the books say.

If you trust a screwgate as your absiel or belay biner, then you should be able to trust one as a single
point lower-off.

> The bolt was a glued in bolt
>and was a bomber anchor

How do you know it was a bomber bolt? Did you test it fully? Good looking bolts can be bad. The
surface glue may have cured but the glue under the surface may have never set. Always be vigilent
about lowering off a single bolt.

> and I lowered my partner down slowly and with no
>jerking. The same when he lowered me .

I think my understanding of physics is that lowering actually DOUBLES the amount of wieght applied
to the anchor, as you are now hanging two people off the single bolt. This is bad!

There are 78 messages in this topic.