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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 30
Author
Safer Cliffs Victoria...Members Only?

Mike Graham
31-Dec-2005
6:08:40 AM
I tried to browse the “Safer Cliffs Victoria” forum and found it interesting it had another membership level. I mean no disrespect here but is this a secret society or something to the likes? I agree with the concept of replacing poor protection or anchors and I hope everyone has a voice in what you’re up to. Just curious?

Climbing is safe when you are climbing within your limit. Don’t be sucked into chasing the numbers.

Peace

I thought you may enjoy a blast from the past

Image hosted by Photobucket.com

Mark Morehead tinkering with “Natural” protection on Tjuringa wall
kieranl
31-Dec-2005
10:02:14 AM
Mike
I think the mods are on holiday so I'll give a brief answer.
The "membership" restriction is there so that only climbers get access to the forum. That was in response to the activities of a non-climber using the forum.
Basically anyone who climbs can get in - I don't know quite what you need to do to prove to the mods that you are worthy, probably sign your name in blood :)
If they accepted me then they'll accept anyone.
Good to see the shot of Mark. I've got a few very similar ones of him trying Tjuringa at another time. I wonder now why he's trying it in full sun - friction would be so much better when it's in the shade late in the day.

adski
31-Dec-2005
10:30:54 AM
Man, that guy had style. Pants like those wouldn't be out of place at a New Years party!

tmarsh
31-Dec-2005
10:33:45 AM
And to add what Kieren said... there is a delicate relationship between Parks Victoria - effectively the land manager for 90% of the good climbing in the state - and those that place and/or replace bolts. Parks' attitude could be summarised as:

1. We know that there are bolts in cliffs
2. We understand that climbers use them
3. We understand that good bolts are better than bad bolts, particularly if they lessen the likelihood of someone being killed, or worse still, being left alive enough to commence legal proceedings
4. We also believe that non-climbers don't either understand or like bolts (assuming they notice them at all)
5. We have a hard time explaining to fat tourists just what that boy was doing hanging from a string with a petrol drill

Add all of those up and you can see why discussing bolting plans or announcing where bolts have been replaced could cause difficulty. If you have someone complaining about bolting activity in a park, and PV can simply look up Chockstone and say 'hey Tim said he replaced some bolts at the gallery this weekend - that must have been him they were complaining about'... A little discretion is better.

tim

Mike Graham
31-Dec-2005
11:15:07 AM
Got it, that makes sense about the Park officials. I hope no one takes me as being cheeky with the SS remark. I’m just sensitive to Retro bolting.

I don’t remember if it was sunny or not that day on Tjurina. As an FYI, Mark followed the pitch that day. You needed some fancy footwork to do that in EB’s. The pants were awesome I may add them to my new clothing Brand.

Maybe I could qualify for the forum with a few first accents I did there?

Hope so, I’m looking forward to returning someday.


Cheers,

Eduardo Slabofvic
31-Dec-2005
11:59:57 AM
Mike, thanks for your input. To give you an alternative view of the safer cliffs Victoria protected forum is that its where the pro-bolting fraternity discuss their issues. There are many climbers out here who are concerned with the way bolts are being introduced at Araps that do not post on the web at all, so therefore decisions on bolting eminating from the SCV forums are skewed from the beginning.

I recently spent a couple of days at the beach with some long term climbers from Nati, and although we were all of the opinion that the current bolting attitudes at araps is poor, we could not all agree on a single position. Here lies the same old problem, no 2 people agree.

The advancement in battery technology has meant that any monkey can get a cordless hammer drill and start unilaterally wacking in bolts. I will not be surprised when some of those bolts start “unilaterally” disappearing. All that is certain is that the rock will be in a worse state when we leave it than when we found it.
armyiain
31-Dec-2005
1:05:51 PM
You just have to ask and then you are added to the list. I don't even live in Victoria (although I love climbing at Araps when I can) and they added me...

IdratherbeclimbingM9
1-Jan-2006
1:01:10 PM
>and they added me...
It also gives some on that forum a 'heads up' as to who has accessed the site, so that when (if?) litigation/issues turn sour they will know its coming?

>The advancement in battery technology has meant that any monkey can get a cordless hammer drill and start unilaterally wacking in bolts.
I remember the lament about bolts being placed by anything other than a hand drill whilst on lead as being unethical.
Certainly technology has coincided with the rise in the number of bolt placements ...
~> at what price to 'style'?
:)
kieranl
2-Jan-2006
10:37:20 PM
On 31/12/2005 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>Mike, thanks for your input. To give you an alternative view of the safer
>cliffs Victoria protected forum is that its where the pro-bolting fraternity
>discuss their issues.

Gross generalisation and incorrect IMHO. Posters tend to run the gamut from sport-climb bolters to adventure climbers. Some of them have even been known to chop bolts. Anyhow, it's your opinion and will suit people who like simple answers.

>There are many climbers out here who are concerned
>with the way bolts are being introduced at Araps that do not post on the
>web at all, so therefore decisions on bolting eminating from the SCV forums
>are skewed from the beginning.

Fair enough, it's just a forum and doesn't claim to be THE forum (so far as I've seen). It's certainly not my sole source of information. It's also worth noting that, as far as I know, the people responsible for most of the bolting at Arapiles over the last few years also do not post to the SCV forums and concern about bolting at Arapiles is not a monopoly of Eduardo and his friends.

>
>I recently spent a couple of days at the beach with some long term climbers
>from Nati, and although we were all of the opinion that the current bolting
>attitudes at araps is poor, we could not all agree on a single position.
> Here lies the same old problem, no 2 people agree.

Jeez, and you had the cheek to say that SCV forums provide a skewed viewpoint. I would have thought Natimuk would have been the place to get a group of long term climbers from Nati together. Despite that you found, as the SCV forums usually demonstrate, that there are rarely simple answers even among people you would consider well-intentioned

>
>The advancement in battery technology has meant that any monkey can get
>a cordless hammer drill and start unilaterally wacking in bolts.

They used to do that even when we had hand-drills

> I will
>not be surprised when some of those bolts start “unilaterally” disappearing.

Presumably well thought out consensus decisions made on the beach. Before people start doing that perhaps they could explain why the bolt on Bygone has been allowed to remain?

> All that is certain is that the rock will be in a worse state when we
>leave it than when we found it.
>
too true.


swampy
2-Jan-2006
11:24:20 PM
On 31/12/2005 armyiain wrote:
>You just have to ask and then you are added to the list. I don't even
>live in Victoria (although I love climbing at Araps when I can) and they
>added me...

It seems there is a bit of inconsistency here... I have sent 2 emails to SCV wondering about passwords to just view the forum and have received diddly squat! I'm a Gramps local and climb regularly but am unable to view issues discussed on the SCV forum without the password. Until now I thought you must need to know the secret handshake.

Bec
climbingjac
3-Jan-2006
10:11:52 AM
On 2/01/2006 swampy wrote:
>I have sent 2 emails
>to SCV wondering about passwords to just view the forum and have received
>diddly squat!

Don't panic, noone is ignoring you. It is currently the festive season, and the person that reads the SCV emails is currently away on a climbing trip with no access to internet. When that person returns, you will surely receive a response.

Cheers,
jac

Eduardo Slabofvic
3-Jan-2006
1:09:21 PM
On 2/01/2006 kieranl wrote:
"a whole lot of stuff"

As I said, no 2 people will agree.
climbingjac
3-Jan-2006
1:31:18 PM
On 31/12/2005 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>The advancement in battery technology has meant that any monkey can get
>a cordless hammer drill and start unilaterally wacking in bolts.

To be honest, bolting is a painfully timeconsuming and expensive process, even with the advancements in battery technology. You have to have the $ to buy the drill and the bolts (plus expensive glue in the case of glueins). You have to carry all the heavy bolting gear up the hill plus rope, plus climbing gear so you can actually get some climbing done that day if there is any spare time. Then you waste yourself "wacking in bolts". If there is any spare time at the end of the day you're too trashed to climb anyway. In this regard, I am in much appreciation of the time put in by rebolters to keep our cliffs safe. Furthermore I can't see that "any monkey" would sacrifice this kind of time, effort and $ towards rebolting for the benefit of others.

And we are talking about REbolting here. Not the bolting of new routes........

Eduardo Slabofvic
3-Jan-2006
3:28:23 PM
On 3/01/2006 climbingjac wrote:
>To be honest, bolting is a painfully timeconsuming and expensive process,
>even with the advancements in battery technology. You have to have the
>$ to buy the drill and the bolts (plus expensive glue in the case of glueins).
> You have to carry all the heavy bolting gear up the hill plus rope, plus
>climbing gear so you can actually get some climbing done that day if there
>is any spare time. Then you waste yourself "wacking in bolts". If there
>is any spare time at the end of the day you're too trashed to climb anyway.
> In this regard, I am in much appreciation of the time put in by rebolters
>to keep our cliffs safe. Furthermore I can't see that "any monkey" would
>sacrifice this kind of time, effort and $ towards rebolting for the benefit
>of others.
>
>And we are talking about REbolting here. Not the bolting of new routes........

I am refering to the rebolting of routes (and also rap stations), and at risk of starting a flame war similar to that of the one going on between tmarsh and Jonsey, the availabilty of cordless hammer drills has meant that process is faster, therefor more bolts go in for a given period of time, as compared to "tap and turn" bolt drills. As such more and more routes are being rebolted over shorter time frames, meaning less time for any consultation on the need for the rebolting (not that much would go on anyway), and along the way the character or specialness of some routes is removed.

The key point I am trying to make is that beneath all the discussion, either on forums such as these, as well as person to person, there is no agreement on an approach to bolting. I am aware of the VCC policy on bolting, but that is just another example of 1 position on bolting. There never has been (to my knowledge), and most likely never will be, 1 view of bolting that is held universally by all climbers. This is what I am referring to as the "unilateralism" of putting bolts in. I am describing an observation, not advocating a position.

I disagree with your final point RE the "any monkey", but we can each have our opinion on that.

tmarsh
3-Jan-2006
4:16:45 PM
On 3/01/2006 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>at risk of starting a flame war similar to that of the one going on between
>tmarsh and Jonsey

I prefer to think of it as a 'free and frank exchange of views'.
climbingjac
3-Jan-2006
5:04:13 PM
On 3/01/2006 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>The key point I am trying to make is that beneath all the discussion,
>either on forums such as these, as well as person to person, there is no
>agreement on an approach to bolting.

Yes, this is a delicate one - bolting is technically illegal so it is tough to have a hard and fast rule and get everyone to abide by it.
gfdonc
3-Jan-2006
5:23:51 PM
I'm watching this debate with interest but can only add:
1. Cordless hammer drills are significantly expensive. Hardly available to all and sundry. You'd want to be serious about bolting to invest in one.

2. 'Ethics are like the weather' I think this quote is Mark Moorhead from the Carrigan Araps guide.

3. Oddly - for an example - I once (only once) retrobolted a route, only to have the bolt chopped by parties unknown and later reinstated by other parties unknown. The new bolt is still there many years later. What does this say? See point 2.
Meaning: what I did was unacceptable to someone, but someone else thought the same way I did. Should we be so fickle about cutting holes in the rock?


IdratherbeclimbingM9
4-Jan-2006
8:30:50 AM
On 3/01/2006 gfdonc wrote:
>Should we be so fickle about cutting holes in the rock?
If you are referring to chipping then the answer is YES but I expect you agree, so your point is* ?
(*Not trying to hijack thread).
dalai
4-Jan-2006
12:17:16 PM
On 3/01/2006 gfdonc wrote:

>I'm watching this debate with interest but can only add:

>3. Oddly - for an example - I once (only once) retrobolted a route, only
>to have the bolt chopped by parties unknown and later reinstated by other
>parties unknown. The new bolt is still there many years later.

Care to provide more details Steve?
gfdonc
4-Jan-2006
12:27:28 PM
No (but just to keep you guessing Dalai).

'Cept that someone I was climbing with took her first lead fall on that bolt a couple of months ago. If it hadn't been there she'd have taken a 20 foot pendulum directly onto the belay - 3 pitches up. A classic route near Melbourne.

That should be enough for you.

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There are 30 messages in this topic.

 

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