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What is Sport and Trad?

Susan

15-Feb-2005
10:11:43 PM

Hi Everyone!

I've been having - err - discussions with a number of people as to the definition of 'sports' and 'trad' climbing.

Many people claim that a sports climb is one that is bolted, while a trad route is one on which one uses cams, nuts etc.

I disagree. To me, it's how you climb - not what gear you use. Look at it this way: which were used first - fixed gear like pitons and bolts - or removable gear like cams and nuts? If you read the history of climbing, you'll soon see that fixed gear has been around for a lot longer than removable gear like cams and nuts. In other words, it can be argued that bolts and pitons are more 'trad' than the more modern cam and nut.

To me, it's how you climb. Put simply - very simply - climbing from the ground up and putting gear in like cams, nuts - and putting quickdraws onto fixed gear like pitons and bolts - is 'trad'. 'Sports' on the other hand, is doing things like abseiling down and pre-placing gear - quickdraws onto fixed gear or pre-placing nuts, cams etc, and then climbing up and simply clipping onto the protection.

Really, there is more to it than this, but for the sake of brevity, I won't write an essay. I hope you know what I mean.

What do people think?


nmonteith

16-Feb-2005
9:17:56 AM

On 15/02/2005 Susan wrote:
In the 'good ol days' of pitons and bolt ladders they still placed them ground up. Swinging a heavy hammer whilst hanging onto the rock was a practical part of old school climbing.

Sport climbs/ing for me is defined by...
- Fixed gear (bolts/pins)
- Half rope length or less
- Lower-off anchor.
- Everyone tries to lead the route.
- No one belays from the top of the route.
- The climb is covered in chalk, tickmarks and shoe rubber!
- No loose rock
- Quickdraws are left in place for redpoint attempts
- You can do 10 or more routes in a day!
-

16-Feb-2005
9:22:08 AM

Then again there's trad routes with chains at the top (eg Tannin) which everyone can lead and the last person cleans the gear when lowering/rapping off - my own lazy terminology for this is to sport climb it.

OTOH I don't agree that clipping bolts ground up is trad!!!

Wendy

16-Feb-2005
10:22:27 AM

On 15/02/2005 Susan wrote:
>
>To me, it's how you climb. Put simply - very simply - climbing from the
>ground up and putting gear in like cams, nuts - and putting quickdraws
>onto fixed gear like pitons and bolts - is 'trad'.

I think there's a world of difference between hanging around on bodgy jams/holds trying to put in gear, possibly miles above your last piece, not sure when your next piece will be, with a full rack hanging off you and ground up clipping of bolts. I have a lot more respect for people who do onsight bolted routes than red pointing, but it's not a trad route! You can see where you're going and where the bolts are, it's a split second job to bung a draw on and clip it. There's a whole pile of skills required for ground up trad ascents that people who have only ever sport climbed don't have, such as route finding, gear placement, setting up belays. Surely these things provide some very clear distinctions?

I think defining styles of ascents/climbing is getting a little carried away - red points, pink points, purple with green polka dots points ... But I prefer on sight, ground up ascents, starting with nothing in the rock and leaving with nothing in the rock. I don't think that clipping bolts on modern sport routes is the same. And old style first ascents placing bolts with hand drills on lead aren't the same as rap bolting and working a route, complete with dogging bolts.

climbingjac

16-Feb-2005
12:29:17 PM

To me, trad involves the use of protection you can remove and take home with you. So you're carring the full kit of heavy gear to the base of the climb.

Sport - it is all there for you... byo quickdraws.

Susan

16-Feb-2005
12:48:58 PM

> To me, trad involves the use of protection you can remove and take home with you. So you're carring the full kit of heavy gear to the base of the climb.

What about climbs in which you place 5 cam, 4 nuts, a sling around a knob of rock AND clip a boltplate and quickdraw onto one bolt? Is that trad or sports?

gfdonc

16-Feb-2005
12:52:10 PM

For me, Neil has added an interesting aspect - that of sport climbing as opposed to sport climbs.
That is, it's not the route as such, but how you go about it. This makes more sense, as I have been struggling to agree a definition about the climb itself.
- Steve

climbingjac

16-Feb-2005
12:52:50 PM

Those kinds of routes are referred to as "mixed routes".


shiltz

16-Feb-2005
12:57:50 PM

Gotta love these long debates over climbing terms...Isn't a "mixed climb" one that includes rock and ice ;-)

16-Feb-2005
2:25:30 PM

On 16/02/2005 shiltz wrote:
>Isn't a "mixed climb" one that includes rock and ice ;-)

Indeed.... Mike can we update the dictionary to include both these definitions!?!

On 16/02/2005 Wendy wrote:
>I think defining styles of ascents/climbing is getting a little carried away - red points, pink points, purple with green polka dots points ...

But your whole post is about distinguishing between different styles of ascents! Instead of needing half a page of writing, these categories are just a more efficient way of saying the same thing.... eg your post could be summarised as "there's a world of difference between trad onsights and sport pinkpoints"!

In fact these divisions aren't enough because as I'm sure you'll agree there is a substantial difference between a pinkpoint second shot having placed all trad gear on lead on the onsight attempt, and a pinkpoint having toproped the hell out of it, preplaced gear on rap and finally dogged it into submission. Sure ground up onsight is the best style but there's a lot of "non-onsight" ascents happening, especially at or near each person's limit. If the climber wants to be honest with themselves then distinctions like redpoint trad vs pinkpoint trad say a lot but don't need half a page of writing to say it.

(plus finely grained tick styles allow better statistical analysis on thecrag.com :P)

PS Susan are you currently in Vic and were you at Rosea on Saturday?


Mike TS

16-Feb-2005
2:39:45 PM

I thought the difference was that when Sports climbing you wore a tight singlet to show your muscle definition & that when Trad climbing you wore a baggy T shirt to hide your stomach?

Wendy

16-Feb-2005
2:54:59 PM

On 16/02/2005 WM wrote:

>
>But your whole post is about distinguishing between different styles of
>ascents! Instead of needing half a page of writing, these categories are
>just a more efficient way of saying the same thing.... eg your post could
>be summarised as "there's a world of difference between trad onsights and
>sport pinkpoints"!
>

largely because I'm thoroughly horrified someone can call onsight bolt clipping a trad route! I figured in the light of this, a little more verbosity was required ... I did feel like I was stating the bleedingly obvious.


maxots

16-Feb-2005
4:03:49 PM

do you people ever climb/work ? ? ?

climberman

16-Feb-2005
5:00:31 PM


IdratherbeclimbingM9

16-Feb-2005
5:29:30 PM

WM said (amongst other things)
>In fact these divisions aren't enough because as I'm sure you'll agree there is a substantial difference between (snip)...

Maybe it could all be summarised as.
Sport = disengage mental (stressful type) commitment & danger.
Trad = commitment & potential danger ~ particularly if you stuff it up while on the sharp end ... :)


nmonteith

16-Feb-2005
5:32:33 PM

The big runouts on many sport routes are hardly un-stressful!


IdratherbeclimbingM9

16-Feb-2005
5:43:24 PM

Matter of degree again? eg a base jumper might consider anything with a cord attached is easy, but a newbie climber might find tight rockshoes stressfull !

... Isn't it good that they can progress to mikl type sandbags!!

WM (re Wendy post) said;
>but don't need half a page of writing to say it.
Go for it Wendy. I agree with you, ... as I suspect does Will, given that his post was as long ! :-))


hatman

16-Feb-2005
7:18:43 PM

T R A D ? S P O R T ?

Tired Sport
Retired Progressive
Ageing Onsight
Dying Radical
Tryhard

Just Bored, thought it would spark comment.
For me trad is a wander up rock with alot of removeable protection can be a pain but also can be satisfying
Sport is an easier option but sometimes not as satisfying but makes for a big ego and lots of fun.


runnit

16-Feb-2005
7:32:01 PM

I'd say sport is all about ticking grades because the pro is already there for you, the main focus is to get the route/sequences sussed out

trad is more about the adventure (lower grades, but route finding, uncertain pro, pumping out while trying to find the right size bit of gear, wandering up big classic multipitches slowly running out of water while it's midday in QLD in summer . . ) gotta love it!!!


Hatman

16-Feb-2005
9:43:20 PM

Whoops that post didn't quite work

T R A D ?

Tired
Retired
Ageing
Dying

S P O R T ?
Sport
Progressive
Onsight
Radical
Tryhard

There are 45 messages in this topic.