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General Climbing Discussion

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new use for an old knot

rhinckle

2-Mar-2014
4:44:20 PM

the alpine butterfly (a loop of one rope) -> the alpine butterbend (tying two ropes together, safely)

it may or may not be useful, compared with other options, but is stable and easy to untie.

figure it out.

just remember i was first.

unless someone else was.

mikllaw

2-Mar-2014
6:34:50 PM

sorry , somone else was. Too fiddly to tie for most uses, I proposed it as a strong assymetrical knot for joining rap ropes. But still too fiddly.

Justcameron

2-Mar-2014
6:38:13 PM

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_bend

I use it to tie ropes together for abseiling. Easy to untie, minimal bulk. Not quite as smooth over an edge as a flat overhand, but I haven't had any troubles yet.

phillipivan

2-Mar-2014
8:28:11 PM

Is it any good, or at least any better than an overhand, with dissimilar sized cords?

Justcameron

2-Mar-2014
11:15:42 PM

On 2/03/2014 mikllaw wrote:
>Too fiddly to tie for most uses

I wonder if this depends on the method you use to tie it. I tie my alpine butterflys using the "twist method" (cf. hand wrap method) which means it is pretty much the same effort to tie the bend (joining two ropes) as the effort required for the standard loop.

On 2/03/2014 phillipivan wrote:
>Is it any good, or at least any better than an overhand, with dissimilar
>sized cords?

No idea.

TimP

3-Mar-2014
8:49:11 AM

This is a great knot and works well in braided line. Best thing is it's easy to undo after loading. I've used it for some pretty big static loads, not in climbing situations though.
I call it the straight bend because the tying method I use comes from Brion Toss a sailboat rigger who gave it that name. I think it might have come from Ashley who developed it as a new knot to tie mohair for high speed weaving machines, it's vey close to knot 501 (glad to see Ashley's book of knots referenced on the death knot thread). I don't think its suitable to join different diameter ropes. On the clip below I also have method for tying the butterfly loop at 2:31.
http://youtu.be/pNOp_zLQQ2I?t=1m21s

kieranl

3-Mar-2014
9:15:21 AM

On 2/03/2014 Justcameron wrote:
>http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_bend
>
>I use it to tie ropes together for abseiling. Easy to untie, minimal bulk.
>Not quite as smooth over an edge as a flat overhand, but I haven't had
>any troubles yet.
If it's not quite as smooth over an edge as an overhand, why use it? There are enough ways for a rope to hang up on abseil without adding to the risk.

Mike Bee

3-Mar-2014
2:58:22 PM

A lot of the outdoor recreation students from TAFE SA are taught this knot for joining ropes together.
It works, I'm comfortable rapping on it, but I never use it personally.
The EDK/ double overhand seems easier to tie, easier to check, less likely to hang up, and with body weight loads, is still fine to untie. I don't se a clear benefit to the butterfly bend.

Justcameron

3-Mar-2014
3:50:31 PM

On 3/03/2014 kieranl wrote:
>If it's not quite as smooth over an edge as an overhand, why use it? There
>are enough ways for a rope to hang up on abseil without adding to the risk.

I acknowledge that the flat overhand is a good knot. However it doesn't have an excellent track record, and if the tails are too short, it is not pre-tensioned or is poorly dressed it has caused accidents. If tied correctly it is a good knot though.

My own understanding is that the alpine butterfly bend does not have the same problems with capsizing or being poorly dressed.

I imagine that if the need arose (horrible looking abseil route which involved dragging the rope through cracks and over knobbly edges etc.) or if I had a bad experience with a rope stuck, I might change my ways.

kieranl

3-Mar-2014
4:28:05 PM

On 3/03/2014 Justcameron wrote:
>On 3/03/2014 kieranl wrote:
>>If it's not quite as smooth over an edge as an overhand, why use it?
>There
>>are enough ways for a rope to hang up on abseil without adding to the
>risk.
>
>I acknowledge that the flat overhand is a good knot. However it doesn't
>have an excellent track record,
Where doesn't it have an excellent track record? Who says? Could you cite some actual examples as this is contrary to what I have read and heard about this knot over the years.
edit : Are you sure that you aren't confusing it with the figure-8 for joining ropes for abseiling? That does have a bad track-record.
>and if the tails are too short, it is not
>pre-tensioned or is poorly dressed it has caused accidents.
Any poorly-tied knot is dangerous and it's not the knot the causes the accident. Which is easier to tie properly, the overhand or the butterfly?

kieranl

3-Mar-2014
4:54:56 PM

Also see http://www.geir.com/mythbuster.html

and

http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&ForumID=1&MessageID=94651&Replies=1

There are 11 messages in this topic.